The Art of Inclusion and the Journey of a Queer Theatre Educator

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Teaching While Queer is a podcast for 2SLGBTQIA+ educational professionals to share their experiences in academia.

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Hi, I'm your host, Bryan Stanton, a theater pedagogue and educator in New York City, and my goal is to share stories from around the world from 2SLGBTQIA+ educators.

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I hope you enjoy Teaching While Queer.

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Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Teaching While Queer.

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I am your host, Bryan Stanton.

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Today, I have the privilege of speaking with Brandon Box- Higdem.

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How are you doing, Brandon, Do you?

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mind taking a second and introducing yourself to the listeners at home.

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Absolutely.

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My name is Brandon Box- Higdem.

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I identify as he/ him, and I have been a teacher for about 15 years and involved in theater and education.

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Pretty much most of my life Came out in 1993 and have navigated these waters since then.

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I was outed in 1996, so not too far behind, was it 1996?

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It was 98.

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I'm just feeling like I'm older than I am.

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That happens and also, like I just want to apologize to those who are listening that this it's inadvertently turned into a lot of theater people.

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But guess what?

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You get connected to the people you get connected to through circles, and I'm a theater educator and there are a lot of theater educators in my circle.

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The good thing is we don't have to talk about theater.

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We'll dive right into what it means to be a queer educator.

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So let's take a journey back in time and talk about your experience as a queer student.

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So you came out in 1993, but did you have any inkling of your identity prior to that?

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Oh, absolutely Absolutely.

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And in fact, after I came out and started to kind of reflect even more, all of the all of the signs were there.

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You know, um, I uh, I graduated from high school in 1990 and uh was a product of uh parent parental divorce.

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I saw my sophomore year in high school and uh, lots and lots of suppression of feelings and all of that uh to kind of navigate.

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And so it wasn't until I actually kind of slowed down in 93 to just do you know one thing and try to do that well, rather than lots and lots of things, that all of a sudden these feelings started coming up.

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It was really interesting around that time period.

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One of the aspects of uh queer culture, in the ways that folks were trying to describe it uh, was this idea of dominant mother, absent father uh and my mom, my family life was on some levels that uh, my dad uh is, is a is a very strong presence in my life.

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But when I was a lot younger he was involved in the military, he was trying to find a the military.

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You know that was kind of hard to kind of navigate, and so that summer of 93, what I ended up doing was reaching out to my dad, who was living down here in Arkansas, and just saying, hey, I found this book, uh, and I want you to to read it because I would like to be able to talk to you about it.

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Uh, and and really and truthfully, my coming out story, uh, when my parents divorced they I was old enough that they gave me the opportunity to select who I would want to go live with, and because my mom was such a strong presence in my life and my dad and I were close, I guess I just felt a stronger emotional connection to my mom that I went with her.

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So, consequently, coming out, I never dreamed that my dad would be the first one like that.

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He was the first one.

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But my stepmom, pam, was this just phenomenal force, just high energy, vibrant, like everybody, just loved being around her.

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And she her sister, is gay and lives up in Seattle.

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And just seeing how my dad kind of navigated around Aunt Claudia, I knew that I probably needed to kind of broach this conversation with him first and it actually was really good.

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It turned out really really well and he helped me navigate.

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Coming out to my mom, my mom was not, it was not a good thing, it actually kind of went polar opposite to the way that I thought it would.

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However, you know we worked our way through it.

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I, you know, I just kept telling her listen.

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I am working my way through this coming out process and if you have questions, I may not know the answers, but I want you to feel comfortable enough to be able to ask them and then I can try to answer them as honestly as I can, or give me some time, and I think through that back and forth, uh way of doing things.

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Um, we finally worked our way through it and then we jump ahead.

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You know, uh, 15 years ago I started teaching and I moved down here to Arkansas to do that and, uh, met my husband actually online, and about seven or eight years later we got married at my mom's lake house in Minnesota, lakeside ceremony.

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And you know, it's just like this full circle of of the journey.

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I love that.

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I'm curious.

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You said you sent your dad a book.

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Do you recall what the title of the book was?

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I want to say it was like father, like son, something like that.

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It was very, it was very of the time period and of course I think they still talk about some of that stuff now.

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But I think they've also proven that it's.

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You know, there's there's no right or wrong way to do that, uh, in the coming out process, and who is gay and who isn't, and and all of those signature type things.

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Um, I think it's interesting because I think the parents.

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Generally parents will go to like a.

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Why like?

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Why?

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Why are you this way?

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Um.

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I think it's funny because, uh, in my own experience, I was asked whether or not I was abused, and I don't have any remembrance of being abused or whatnot.

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I just knew that I was always.

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I mean, I will say that I knew that I was always not exclusively interested in women, you know, or girls, um, but um, it's interesting, they go to the y.

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And it's funny for me now because my parents can actually joke about things which it took a long time for them to do.

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That right and and the the running joke for a while was yes um, I was gay because I watched mary poppins so much as a kid and it's like I.

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I ruined vhs, vhs after vhs watching Mary Poppins, and so that's it.

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That's why.

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So thank you, julie Andrews, for making me who I am today.

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Thank you, julie Andrews.

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Yes, yes, If you ever listen to this I love you.

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All right.

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So, thinking on that, you came out after high school, you came out well before you were an educator, and so how do you think your experience just as a queer person has kind of impacted your teaching?

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It is one of the things that I have never.

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I think in the last like three or four years I've really kind of honed my focus of making my classroom much more accessible than when I was in school, because I want my classroom to be a place that I never had.

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I think everything during the 80s and 90s was so shrouded in shame and guilt and the AIDS epidemic.

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And you know, in fact that's where that's immediately where my mom went.

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My mom, my mom's mind didn't go to the why my mom's mind went to oh my God, I'm too young to be able to lose my son to this cancerous, you know, whatever Cause she didn't use the word aids, um, and it took a number of conversations with her to be able to say listen, like just because I'm sharing this side of me with you does not mean that I'm promiscuous or I'm not going to be safe in this scary time, you know.

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But it also kind of defined.

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It defined that kind of parameter of the community, because there was a lot of fear, there was a lot of of of shame and guilt about things that we just don't talk about, and so to be here and be able to reflect back on that, the idea that it is night and day and that I am able to marry who I love, you know, uh, and in fact do it the day after the supreme court, you know, passed.

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It was pretty phenomenal, uh.

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We selected minnesota because was it was already approved, like gay marriage had already been passed?

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Uh and uh.

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And then it just so happened that the Supreme court passed it and the next day we got married, you know, uh.

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But but I also have that perspective to be able to bring to my classroom, to be able to bring uh to the students who are struggling.

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And the first couple of days I just say listen, my door is always open, you can come and talk to me.

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I may not necessarily know all of the answers.

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I may not necessarily be able to have to be able to keep everything that you share with me.

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If it's something that's really scary, like, I might able to keep everything that you share with me.

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If it's, if it's something that's really scary, like I might need to find somebody for you or I might have to report it or you know any of that kind of stuff.

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But but I also, you know, basically tell them I want you to know that that if that does happen, I'm going to still be right by you.

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I'm not going to just pass you off, and you know, because, um, everybody's coming out story is different, you know, um, and so I I just try to build my classroom as a, as a place where kids can feel safe to just be who they are.

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Um, you know, sometimes not to kind of bring back to theater and stuff but theater sometimes does that but to be able to feel that freedom of expression of who they are is powerful and something that I didn't have.

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And that's where I've, in the last couple of I've really embraced and kind of doubled down Absolutely.

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And I think there's one of the things that I love about being a theater educator and this is kind of timely, considering there was for, for those of you who are not theater people and maybe don't keep up with the headlines, we're recording this in December and over the last few months a school in Northern Texas has been targeted, um and really uh, had a lot of media because the administration decided that they had to cancel the musical because there were people playing roles that were not aligned with the gender on or the sex that was written on their birth certificate, and it specifically affected a transgender boy who played the male role.

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And what I find so great about theater is that it is a place where students can affirm themselves.

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I once had a transgender boy play Pinocchio and he ends the play saying I'm a real boy, I'm a real boy, I'm a real boy, right, and it's like Ooh, I said I didn't realize when I cast you that I was going to have this powerful moment that I absolutely loved, but like I did, and like it had me crying without realizing why, because I wasn't actively thinking about that I was putting the right person in the role and I think that it's the fun thing about what we get to do is that you can even just experiment with it, because I'm going to tell you what there are not enough men in theater programs for high school.

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So you know, the likelihood of a trans masculine student wanting to test out what it means to be masculine in a role in high school is is very likely because we're constantly asking women to play men on stage.

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Yeah, and the thing is is it's tied to theater history.

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I mean, if you're you know, we've got all of this craziness just kind of going on in school districts all over the country.

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But when you look at Shakespeare, I mean Shakespeare, all of the like Juliet, the original Juliet was a male whose voice hadn't changed yet.

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I mean it's you know, and yet they want you to be able to teach to curriculum standards and all of that and theater history.

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I mean it's like that's part of the curriculum you know.

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So it's like absolutely.

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I also find it fascinating because I mean shakespeare is being debated now, like romeo and julia can't be seen.

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Um, and like and like, uh, I don't know, bugs, uh, james and the giant peach.

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There were actors playing all of these different kind of characters and because they were playing characters that were not aligned with their gender, even though they were bugs, um, there was boycotts happening.

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It is a wild time, which leads me to my next kind of you uh mentioned that you are in arkansas, uh, and you have a not so lovely governor right now, and so I wanted to talk a little bit about what your experience is like as a queer educator in Arkansas, and do you find yourself dealing with a lot of anti-queer behavior?

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Yeah, you know, I've been thinking about this since I reached out to you and to how I was going to answer this, because I really, in my school district, I feel nurtured and it's a lot more calmer, I think, at some levels, in regards to politics, on some levels, even though politics right now is so turbulent.

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So I do feel very, very lucky to be in the school district that I am in, partly because, you know, in the last couple of years, our admin, all the way up to you know, superintendent, they have not been afraid to have the conversations.

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You know, we were talking a couple of years ago about a trans student who was in trans male, who was in a forensics squad, and they were trying to work their way through some district policies in regards to hotel stays and where this child would stay.

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And one of my dear friends, who's also a fellow colleague, uh, was just like what do I do?

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I mean?

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Like how do I navigate that?

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Because this child would be, would be mortified to know that they were going to have to be in a room with three girls, you know, um, and and one of our, one of our admin said well, we would just, we would just have to to do it.

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You know, and we're, and we probably would need to have that conversation with the parents.

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And and then, and then she kind of turned to me and said and how do you feel about that, brandon?

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And I and I looked at her and I said, well, you could have just outed them Like you literally could have just outed that child, and we've got to be so careful in that.

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And I think it really shook that administrator.

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You know, as we, as the conversation progressed, there were some tears, there was some things like that.

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You know that it was just like we, we've got to be better.

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And I even said to her, even in this conversation, she said this we were sitting in my classroom.

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I go, this is a safe place because I want this space to be what I didn't have, and that, you know, kind of a thing.

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I think it's different in other cities across our state.

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Uh, it's definitely different in cities across our country in regards to, uh, you know what was so jarring this year, uh, was the fact that the I mean our first week of school for us teachers is professional development and it is, you know, cram packed and the very first session was two hours of looking at all of the laws that had just been passed, that we have to follow, that we have to navigate through.

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A fourth of them are dealing with transgender students.

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And in my head I'm sitting here thinking these kids are going to either implode or they're going to commit suicide.

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Or does my goal need to be to protect these children from, you know, suicidal thoughts this year because of all of this, you know?

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And then in my head I'm also going what is happening?

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Like I cannot wrap my mind around the fact that we spent legislative time dealing with where someone can pee, rather than the fact that we have to do four mandatory active shooter drills in our schools every year and in fact, the next morning after legislative, you know, active shooter for another two and a half hours.

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And I was like, like when I was in school I never would have thought this, but it's like this is my life now.

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This is, you know, I think the priorities are askew.

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Priorities are so askew right now.

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I think people one of the things that I tell my speech kids, the people who have been so kind of undercurrent supremacist and all of that have been given an opportunity to be able to speak and that their voices are heard and equal folks that are trying to do good, and that, I think, has been has opened the door to all of this hatred of people who are different than you.

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You know, I consistently come back to the fact that you know, we are a country that is built on the separation of church and state, and we also are built on the foundation of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and I feel like whatever that looks like needs to be what is embraced in this country.

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You know you're not necessarily going to agree with someone, but talking at someone and not listening to what's happening is a major issue.

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That I think we're not there yet.

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I mean, congress is not there yet as a clear statue of you know where they're at.

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I think people need to stop.

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I think they need to sit back, I think they need to listen to what they're being told from someone.

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The minute that they feel like they don't agree, I don't think I think they need to fight that urge to be like, yes, but I did, in trying to jump in and one up everybody and then have an honest conversation.

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You know, which is why I wanted to be here today is because I think I think it's important that people hear that, that you know, stop talking at each other.

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Take a moment, listen you.

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You don't have to agree, but you also, you know, can also know that, like you know, in the end my life is not your life.

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You know, we've got.

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We've got differences, and that's okay.

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We may be different nationalities, we may be different religions, we may be different sexualities, we may be different any of that kind of stuff and that I think what we've lost is recognizing that that's what makes the United States unique and gives it its power, and some of that power is being dictated rather than an open conversation.

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Absolutely.

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I think that you're spot on right there.

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There seems to be a definite lack of humanity and empathy, and I would be willing to say, critical thinking skills, which is another reason that I think that education is being targeted is because part of what we're supposed to teach children is to evaluate and think critically.

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And that's kind of why we're in the firing range is because we're teaching children that they need to kind of look, assess and make their own opinion and even though adults were supposedly taught this as children, it's kind of flown out the window.

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For this is what I believe and that's what matters, and that's it.

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So I think you're spot on.

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And and that breath, like we also were taught.

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I mean, I was taught I don't know if it's because I I was taking acting classes but I was taught about active listening skills and like taking a breath and listening to someone and and how to respond, and it's like yeah any of those skills that were kind of the skills that you actually get from school, that are relevant to life kind of, have fallen to the wayside.

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You know, one of the things, too, that that that I struggle with so hard is this, this use of the word indoctrination.

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I struggle so hard because I also sit back and I look at some of the choices that are being made, you know, in regards to, you know, religion in the schools and all of this kind of stuff.

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And, listen, I'm Christian and that was a major portion of my coming out, was dealing with the guilt of being raised Lutheran, and it was fire and brimstone during that time period, and that was also another reason why coming out to my dad was so important, because he helped me navigate.

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You know what the Bible says, what that, you know what that implies and how.

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You know how it can be interpreted.

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And I mean, listen, this man became.

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He went on to become a Methodist preacher.

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He's currently a Methodist preacher and he is fighting the good fight in regards to that split.

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But I have trouble when I'm sitting in a classroom and we have spent $500,000 or something like crazy amount of money like that for an 11 by 17 framed photo that has a picture of the flag and says in God, we trust that needs to go in every classroom and in my head.

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I'm sitting here thinking what does that say to our Muslim students?

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What does that say to our Hindu students?

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What do we y'all, what?

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What is happening?

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You know, and in regards to indoctrination, you know, I, I, I know, I know that there are parents in my school district that feel like I shouldn't talk about my life, feel like I shouldn't talk about my husband, feel like I shouldn't talk about you know, um, but it all comes back to for me, um, I, I've been watching some of the podcast and and, and one of the things that did resonate with me was this aspect of if a heterosexual, straight teacher is allowed to have their wedding photo in or pictures of their family in their classroom.

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I am, too, and I also don't shy away from the conversations of like, yeah, I had to, like come home last night and cook dinner.

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Like we do really random, boring things that are every day.

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Like it's not, you know, we're not this like abhorrence or or like abomination that we live in this.

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No, we have everyday lives Like we, you know it's, and, and I want my students to understand that that you know, I live my life, the same type of journey that everybody else does.

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You know, I just happen to love someone who's the same gender as me.

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I think it goes back to what we were talking about earlier when we were discussing the AIDS epidemic and promiscuity.

00:28:04.612 --> 00:28:17.929
Like that was the immediate kind of direction that your mom took, and I think we're still dealing with that kind of backlash of like oh, queer people are just like sex crazed and it's all about queer sex.

00:28:17.929 --> 00:28:33.851
And it's wild to me because and this gets pointed out I interact with my guests a ton on social media and this gets pointed out a lot by my guests as they go through life and you know people are targeting them for various reasons or whatnot.

00:28:33.851 --> 00:28:47.455
It always comes down to someone thinking about queer sex more than queer people think about queer sex when really we're just like oh gosh, I have to go to the grocery store tonight and I am so exhausted after dinner I'm going straight to bed.

00:28:49.739 --> 00:29:00.218
um a typical life, because I mean, yes, it would be nice to just be like you know I'm gonna have sex all the time, but that's not how life works, like you know.

00:29:00.218 --> 00:29:02.561
Like fantastic, that's great.

00:29:02.561 --> 00:29:14.935
And and some people, some people on all sides of sexuality, do focus on, on sex, and that's not something against, you know, sex workers or people in the porn industry or anything like.

00:29:14.955 --> 00:29:21.585
That's a choice that they've made but like, your daily life is your daily life and no matter what you're doing, even if sex is your job, you still have to deal with.

00:29:21.585 --> 00:29:24.295
Daily life is your daily life and no matter what you're doing, even if sex is your job, you still have to deal with daily life stuff.

00:29:24.295 --> 00:29:27.624
And it's that part that I think people forget.

00:29:27.624 --> 00:29:34.942
Like we're just daily life.

00:29:34.942 --> 00:29:48.781
People who are married, there's definitely less stigmatization happening because it's like oh well, you're the normal one and my husband.

00:29:48.781 --> 00:29:52.605
I used to say that we were the palatable queer people because we were married with kids.

00:29:52.605 --> 00:29:55.162
So, like we were, we were okay.

00:29:55.162 --> 00:29:57.878
Yeah, we could be tolerated.

00:29:57.999 --> 00:29:58.299
Yeah.

00:30:00.486 --> 00:30:00.807
Me too.

00:30:01.215 --> 00:30:08.042
I hate that word too I was was like it's funny because I'm like, we're like acceptance and now we need to move beyond that even.

00:30:08.042 --> 00:30:11.558
But I'm glad that we're we're trying to get away from tolerance.

00:30:11.558 --> 00:30:15.227
It's like a sticky substance that just like won't let go.

00:30:15.227 --> 00:30:27.083
But I just think of like I don't know, I'm a comic book person, so like I think of like I don't know, I'm a comic book person, so like I think of Venom and how Venom is like sticky, the comic book character, and it's like Venom is tolerant.

00:30:27.234 --> 00:30:31.259
He just won't go away, but we're trying to move towards something else.

00:30:31.259 --> 00:30:34.188
Yeah yeah, I don't know.

00:30:34.188 --> 00:30:37.942
That's a little, you know, rundown of my like superhero life.

00:30:37.942 --> 00:30:38.943
There you go.

00:30:41.674 --> 00:30:41.957
There you go.

00:30:41.957 --> 00:30:43.423
You and my husband would get along really well.

00:30:44.857 --> 00:30:45.138
He loves.

00:30:45.179 --> 00:30:45.661
Nightcrawler.

00:30:45.661 --> 00:30:46.624
That's awesome.

00:30:46.624 --> 00:30:52.623
When we first started dating he complained so much.

00:30:52.623 --> 00:30:55.724
He was like I look at Funko Pops all the time.

00:30:55.724 --> 00:30:59.296
They've got all this random crap he goes.

00:30:59.296 --> 00:31:01.143
They never have a Nightcrawler.

00:31:02.315 --> 00:31:09.339
Then all of a sudden it started to take of oh good that route, so he's got him now but I'm not a little person and I know people who are.

00:31:09.339 --> 00:31:27.261
I just like I have trouble with clutter oh, okay okay, people have given me, like I have funko pop for, you know, marvel Marvel characters, I have Funko Pop for Schitt's Creek characters and whatnot, and I'm just and RuPaul's Drag Race.

00:31:28.316 --> 00:31:28.416
And.

00:31:28.457 --> 00:31:31.005
I'm like, okay, these are great and all.

00:31:31.005 --> 00:31:33.161
Where am I going to put them?

00:31:33.161 --> 00:31:36.001
It's just, I don't want to deal with the clutter.

00:31:36.343 --> 00:31:37.365
I'm anti-clutter.

00:31:37.365 --> 00:31:41.429
The Schitt's Creek Funko Pops are right over here on the shelf.

00:31:41.935 --> 00:31:46.767
It's funny because now that I have this shelf up here, I should probably put them there.

00:31:46.767 --> 00:31:52.880
There, you go Thinking about the current political kind of landscape.

00:31:52.880 --> 00:32:00.270
What advice would you give to a teacher who's just starting out, who's unsure, if they're even allowed to be themselves in a classroom?

00:32:03.015 --> 00:32:06.000
Yeah, you're going to kind of have to test those waters.

00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:17.511
When I first started, uh, I uh, I was in central Arkansas and, um, one of my dear mentors uh, really cautioned me.

00:32:17.511 --> 00:32:54.898
I'd lived for 12 years in Omaha, out and proud and working in the community, raising money for charity, doing all of these different artistic endeavors that I could raise money for in the Nebraska AIDS Project and all of that kind of stuff, and I kind of came into teaching as a roundabout way because I got my master's in theatrical directing and had traveled and all of that, uh, but I was working in retail as a visual manager to be able to pay the rent in Omaha and then living my life working in theater non-stop.

00:32:54.898 --> 00:33:27.041
And uh, one particular uh year, uh, I had a visit that was just had this like weird tone to it and I left the next day to come down to Arkansas for my little sister's wedding and my dad, dive, bombed me at the reception to this lady who worked for the Department of Ed down here for their nontraditional licensure program of Ed down here for their non-traditional licensure program, and that was in the beginning of February and everything just did this and I moved.

00:33:27.142 --> 00:33:32.298
July 4th weekend I met Justin two weeks later online.

00:33:32.298 --> 00:33:50.464
We started visiting you know all of that so it just started to kind of go that way, All that to be said, that it almost felt like I was having to go back into the closet after 12 years of being out and very, very proud of who I was as a person.

00:33:50.464 --> 00:33:54.137
Um, it was the good old boys club.

00:33:54.137 --> 00:33:54.558
It was.

00:33:54.558 --> 00:34:09.697
You know, all of this kind of stuff you don't want to, you don't want to boast too proudly, even know like one of one of my mentors even questioned one of the peace frogs rainbow peace frog stickers that I'd put on my car and she was like is that a gay?

00:34:09.757 --> 00:34:13.164
thing is that like what is, what is that?

00:34:13.164 --> 00:34:17.422
And I'm like, uh, it's a it's a frog with a.

00:34:17.443 --> 00:34:24.159
You know, I was like um piece, like she's like, oh, okay, okay, okay.

00:34:24.159 --> 00:34:32.070
So I would say, um, for that first year is so hard.

00:34:32.070 --> 00:34:38.344
Just because it's first year, you know, it's just you're gonna.

00:34:38.344 --> 00:34:42.920
Oh, my gosh, I don't ever want to go back to being a first year teacher ever again.

00:34:42.920 --> 00:34:44.324
Like it is so hard.

00:34:44.324 --> 00:34:54.108
Um, and I'm so thankful for all of the mentors that got me, you know, to year three, where I finally felt like I could breathe.

00:34:54.108 --> 00:35:04.364
You know, um, I think that the struggle for, for uh presence is real right now.

00:35:04.364 --> 00:35:09.590
I, I think our kids need it and deserve it.

00:35:09.590 --> 00:35:37.579
But you also have to be quite differently for a little while, until you figure out what course you're going to chart.

00:35:38.940 --> 00:35:55.505
I didn't really truthfully start to kind of talk about my personal life until probably about six or seven years into teaching, and that was when we were preparing for our wedding, you know.

00:35:55.505 --> 00:36:32.313
And so that's where, you know, we started to kind of open up and was allowed to be a little bit more, or not more, reserved in regards to discussing, you know, personal life, and so, I think, and then I left the school district there and came up here at northwest arkansas, and then it was just like, oh my gosh, like you know, we've got admin who introduced themselves and said, like this is, this is the day that I came out and this is, you know, there was a number of of folks that came up to me uh, that it felt, it felt more comfortable, like I had finally arrived.

00:36:32.313 --> 00:36:44.903
But you've got to be able to kind of test those waters and be able to figure out, like you know, um, what parameter of community are you in in regards to uh?

00:36:45.025 --> 00:36:46.327
turbulence, uh, turbulent or non-turbulent.

00:36:46.327 --> 00:36:47.199
I think you're spot on there.

00:36:47.199 --> 00:36:50.581
It's, it's really about kind of just being aware of your environment.

00:36:53.447 --> 00:36:53.686
Yeah.

00:36:53.766 --> 00:36:54.728
Yeah, yeah.

00:36:56.278 --> 00:37:18.110
Um, oh yeah, I also think, too, like there's a sense of bravery in in figuring out to like you got to be brave to be able to navigate that water and you've got to be brave to also be strong enough to be able to be a presence and a force for your kids, because they become your kids.

00:37:18.110 --> 00:37:19.900
Like you know, you're with them.

00:37:19.900 --> 00:37:24.005
You know, for me, I teach nine through 12.

00:37:24.005 --> 00:37:28.137
So, like this year, my advisory class is is ninth graders.

00:37:28.137 --> 00:37:33.208
Uh, I got to walk my high school seniors last May, you know, in in graduation.

00:37:33.208 --> 00:38:05.932
So you know us, these ninth graders are just like deer in the headlights, you know, and, uh, you know and, and and we've got to be nurturing and being able to be brave enough to be able to correct the mistakes and love them when they make those mistakes, love them when they do well, love them when they make wrong choices, correct them and redirect them to help them at least become, you know, decent human beings in this world.

00:38:06.315 --> 00:38:08.923
Absolutely, and I think that idea of them becoming your children.

00:38:08.923 --> 00:38:13.722
I used to always say that I have, uh, I have four children and 150 others.

00:38:13.722 --> 00:38:16.617
Um, cause, that's what?

00:38:16.657 --> 00:38:22.597
it meant to me and it's funny because when uh as a theater educator when, I was questioned like I had to fill out this form.

00:38:22.617 --> 00:38:23.945
That was like uh, does this play include explicit sexual uh content?

00:38:23.945 --> 00:38:25.030
And I was questioned like I had to fill out this form.

00:38:25.030 --> 00:38:28.722
That was like uh, does this play include explicit sexual uh content?

00:38:28.722 --> 00:38:33.793
And I was like ew, no gross, these are like my children, why.

00:38:33.793 --> 00:38:34.936
Why would you do that?

00:38:35.097 --> 00:38:46.764
like no, yeah, um and just the fact that I was questioned on it and it and what drove me crazy I think the most about that was that all of the heterosexual teachers before me never had to fill something out like that.

00:38:46.764 --> 00:38:58.409
But you know, the queer person comes in and it's like, oh, we have to question your morality Because you know people are innately just promiscuous.

00:38:58.409 --> 00:39:00.958
It's all sex all the time, obviously.

00:39:00.958 --> 00:39:14.309
Yeah, so, thinking on just kind of the environment right now, what would you like to see the school community as a whole do to be more inclusive of 2SLGBTQ plus people?

00:39:15.775 --> 00:39:16.896
It's scary right now.

00:39:18.398 --> 00:39:20.659
It's really scary, you know.

00:39:20.659 --> 00:39:34.396
It's not only scary for for, you know, gay and lesbian and transgender and bisexual students, but it's also scary for those teachers, you know.

00:39:34.396 --> 00:39:41.021
I think it depends on your school district.

00:39:41.021 --> 00:40:08.769
I think for us, I think, on some levels, there is a undercurrent of we need to love and support these teachers, we need to love and support these students, but our hands are also tied because you know the state is making this decision and the state is making this decision, and then you know where do we navigate through.

00:40:08.769 --> 00:40:41.036
I think if school districts could focus more towards the relationships with their admin and their teaching staff, in regards to recognizing that the decisions don't necessarily reflect our personal relationship, obviously, we have to honor what the state does and let's just do whatever we can to kind of protect ourselves.

00:40:41.036 --> 00:41:01.777
I would say also you know, um, on some levels, uh, this kind of going back to that first year teacher, uh, you know, get into that union right away, make sure that you're, you know you're there so that, so that if something does come that you can, you know, have some of that support behind you.

00:41:02.820 --> 00:41:07.010
Um, it's really hard right now, I think.

00:41:07.010 --> 00:41:15.177
I think teaching is in this area that I hope the pendulum is going to swing, and I hope that it's going to swing quickly to get get us out of this.

00:41:15.177 --> 00:41:25.335
Uh, because there's so many other things that need to be on the table for discussion.

00:41:25.335 --> 00:41:34.983
You know why we still have students in high school who can't read, like what is happening.

00:41:35.443 --> 00:41:47.664
You know We've got kiddos that are coming out of COVID that are just socially struggling.

00:41:47.664 --> 00:41:54.262
They're just struggling and you know what do we do to meet those kids where they are?

00:41:54.262 --> 00:42:10.576
You know, and what are we doing in regards to student safety?

00:42:10.576 --> 00:42:23.969
Student, uh, some of the, some of the, the, uh, the parameters of things that we're that we're having to deal with, where a child pees sometimes seems ridiculous to be passing the laws about it's like seriously, you know, um, and yet we have to honor them.

00:42:23.969 --> 00:42:25.458
You know, it's it's's.

00:42:25.458 --> 00:42:39.565
It's frustrating for me on some levels, because I do feel like hands are being tied and and and you know, in order to keep our jobs, we have to be um complacent I feel that I do like this.

00:42:39.744 --> 00:43:07.237
I mean, I don't like this is a very kind of crass summarization of what you said, but it's almost like one of the best things that school administrations can do is kind of not ignore us but focus on the important things and make it knowing that, like queer, people are here and they're just here doing their daily life and they don't have to, you don't have to worry about them.

00:43:08.081 --> 00:43:27.730
But the constant, like keeping us in the headlines and the constant keeping us at the front of things is actually a detriment, because, while we want inclusion and we want to be visible and we want to be heard, we also just want to live our lives, and so why do we constantly have to conversation?

00:43:28.170 --> 00:43:30.603
and make and make lives better for other folks.

00:43:30.603 --> 00:43:35.005
Make lives better for other folks, like you know, don't live.

00:43:35.005 --> 00:43:38.304
Don't live the mistakes that I made when I was coming out.

00:43:38.304 --> 00:43:41.920
Know that it's different now and I'm here to help you.

00:43:41.960 --> 00:44:11.389
If you, if you so choose, you know I can help you navigate that, or or not, like you know absolutely, but yeah, well, I I think that's a very, uh, thorough answer and it's a little bit different than what I've heard in the past, which I appreciate, because the whole point here is to have people share their perspectives and just to see how, how varied we can get, because every episode should come with some sort of grain of sand you can take away and hoard for your own future use.

00:44:11.389 --> 00:44:20.115
So, that being said, at this point I'm going to turn the mic over to you and you can ask me a question for me to answer, so take it away.

00:44:20.675 --> 00:44:42.255
I guess one of the things that I find interesting is is how do you, in teaching theater and in teaching the way that we are, we are kind of navigating this, this idea of banning shows, banning books, all this kind of stuff what kind of things have you navigated through and what have you learned?

00:44:42.695 --> 00:44:46.476
So my troubles actually started before all these bans kind of came through.

00:44:46.476 --> 00:44:57.871
I I was working in a very conservative community in san antonio, texas, which a lot of people here san antonio, austin, dallas, houston are very liberal, and that's true.

00:44:57.871 --> 00:45:18.717
But there are also pockets of conservatism there, um, and and the community I was living in was old, rich, white money and there were even articles out about how, you know, school district lines are drawn so that that community stays dominantly white.

00:45:18.717 --> 00:45:44.702
For that school district and it had a horrible name or nickname that included, you know, the whites, um, and so I was in that community, but what I saw in the way that the school culture was and and the things that were happening in the district, was that there was this push for kind of, um, inclusivity across the board.

00:45:44.702 --> 00:45:47.152
There was this push for kind of inclusivity across the board.

00:45:47.152 --> 00:46:08.456
There was this push that happened before I got there of being inclusive of people with disabilities, and then this tragic situation happened with a student with cyber bullying, that kind of forced their hand when it comes to updating policies and the culture of the school, and that was two years before I started.

00:46:08.456 --> 00:46:28.626
And then, when I got there, things were good for a while and we had a lot of administrative change and then we had a presidential change and then all of a sudden, it's like all the forward movement that was happening for inclusivity kind of went backwards.

00:46:28.626 --> 00:46:53.628
And so when I first started there and I had done this years ago with a nonprofit organization I ran, I performed Carrie the Musical, my second year teaching and for those of you who don't know Carrie, carrie is based off the Stephen King book Um and there is cussing in it, but it's not that, not really that bad.

00:46:53.869 --> 00:46:57.641
The word of choice that people were very upset about was pussy.

00:46:57.641 --> 00:47:03.362
Like don't be a pussy, I think, was the line, and it's like all right then.

00:47:03.362 --> 00:47:05.166
Like why are we worried about that?

00:47:05.166 --> 00:47:18.510
Well, the school district started receiving emails from people who were never going to attend any show that I put on, even if it was the Passion of Christ.

00:47:18.510 --> 00:47:20.056
They just don't support theater, that's not what they do.

00:47:20.056 --> 00:47:24.539
But they received emails from folks saying you can't do Carrie, you need to cancel the show.

00:47:24.539 --> 00:47:25.423
It's demonic.

00:47:25.423 --> 00:47:26.315
It's this.

00:47:26.315 --> 00:47:43.021
It's that I don't want to see naked children on stage because they think of the 1980s movie, where there was naked children or not children, but you know, naked people in locker rooms in the movie and I'm like y'all are weird, like that.

00:47:43.021 --> 00:47:44.521
You would think that that would happen on a stage.

00:47:44.521 --> 00:47:52.391
And I think part of my struggles was that, like my students like to do heavy things.

00:47:52.431 --> 00:48:09.730
So the year before that we did the Crucible, which aligns with curriculum, right, they were reading it in another class and so I tried to do as much as I can to put on the plays that they were reading in another class, as an opportunity for them to experience the piece the way it's intended, as opposed to reading it in English class.

00:48:09.730 --> 00:48:18.668
And so we do a lot of things that were, you know, on the dark side At some point.

00:48:18.668 --> 00:48:19.956
We did Macbeth and whatnot.

00:48:19.956 --> 00:48:25.385
So my students were really into drama and I was like we need to do comedy, we need to.

00:48:25.385 --> 00:48:27.088
We need to realize this.

00:48:29.697 --> 00:48:31.335
Please, dear Lord, make something funny.

00:48:31.956 --> 00:48:36.027
It was a black box production and the thing is like it sold out.

00:48:36.027 --> 00:48:46.905
We had to add additional nights, it sold out, and it's the only performance I've had to get that kind of draw.

00:48:46.905 --> 00:48:55.545
That wasn't like full campus performance, like when we did Mamma Mia and we used the music department and everybody was involved with it.

00:48:55.545 --> 00:48:56.688
It was huge.

00:48:56.688 --> 00:49:06.230
But I did Carry by myself, with some contractors that I brought in to help with vocal support.

00:49:06.230 --> 00:49:25.961
Even though I can teach voice, I was just overwhelmed, and so it was a huge success, and what I found was that they focused on the few voices who were never going to watch the show or any show for that matter, and not the success of the show.

00:49:26.382 --> 00:49:30.619
During that, we raised money for an organization called david's legacy foundation.

00:49:30.619 --> 00:49:47.449
Um, because david molak was the student who was cyber bullied at the school and then, and if like later on, after he transferred out of the school, was continued to be bullied and killed himself, and so we raised money for the foundation.

00:49:47.449 --> 00:49:48.739
His parents were there.

00:49:48.739 --> 00:49:50.184
They loved the show.

00:49:50.184 --> 00:49:56.643
There is a whole section of Carrie where it's updated for the stage to include cyberbullying and we use projection.

00:49:56.643 --> 00:50:11.148
We had pre-recorded the scene during a dress rehearsal, with all the students with their cameras just kind of like pointing at her, and then we put it on projection so that you see carrie in the center of the circle being bullied online, um.

00:50:11.148 --> 00:50:38.889
So they added comments and stuff like that and, um, we kind of dive into that, we had talkbacks and whatnot, so we did all of this good, but people were upset by the title of the piece and what they remember from a movie and the word pussy, and the thing that drives me crazy about that is that I mean, I know it's not the word vagina, but it's it's not the worst word out there.

00:50:40.458 --> 00:51:09.800
Uh, there are worse words being said in hallways and sometimes classrooms of high school campuses, yeah, and so my experience with that is that after that, I had to start dealing with this document where, basically, I had to fill out a form to make sure that none of these bad things were happening, and it's like, ok, well, I have fighting in this one, and so that's something I got to talk about, and I have kissing in this one, and so that's something I gotta talk about, and I have kissing in this one because it's romeo and juliet or whatever.

00:51:09.800 --> 00:51:21.746
Um, and what really frustrated me about it, as I mentioned earlier, was that, like none of the straight teachers who were before me had to fill it out, and I believe the straight teacher that's there now doesn't have to fill it out.

00:51:21.746 --> 00:51:34.420
It was just a form for me because I was a queer teacher, because I know the teacher who's there now and I honestly feel like she doesn't have time to fill out the form.

00:51:34.420 --> 00:51:36.844
So I don't know if it's happening still.

00:51:36.844 --> 00:51:41.021
I mean, I could be lying and and she does fill it out, but I don't, I don't know.

00:51:41.161 --> 00:51:57.608
I feel like it wasn't important once I left, but also once I left the next year, there was this whole anti-rainbow thing that happened during professional development, where teachers were told to take down all rainbows from classrooms because it's too political.

00:51:57.608 --> 00:52:04.159
And so then I had been the advisor for their GSA for a long time.

00:52:04.159 --> 00:52:15.251
We made shirts, and so I had to send the logo for the shirts to the GSA sponsors now so that they can make new shirts, because that was the only way to wear a rainbow was if it was a student shirt.

00:52:15.251 --> 00:52:21.041
And so there's this huge kind of pushback.

00:52:21.041 --> 00:52:29.179
That's happening in certain areas, but it's happening in certain areas in every state, like there's no state.

00:52:29.300 --> 00:52:51.891
I think that's safe from this situation and I think that's the most troublesome part is when the federal government and the state governments are supposed to divide and conquer education, education and there's no real clear terminology that protects LGBTQ people in the federal laws.

00:52:51.891 --> 00:52:59.538
Then each state has the right to decide what they want to do Um, and I think that's where title nine is failing right now.

00:53:00.760 --> 00:53:06.909
Um, because title nine is supposed to protect from, uh, gender discrimination.

00:53:06.909 --> 00:53:56.867
And if title seven, which protects from workplace harassment and firing and discrimination, has now been included by the Supreme court to include sexual orientation and gender identity, then title nine needs to do the same, because, since you can't pick on the adults because the supreme court protected them the conservative supreme court at that since you can't pick on the adults, now it's only picking on children, like literally all these laws are picking on children and it's like all these bullies, who are adults, are bullying children, which leaves people like you and me, when we're in an environment with these children where we're not only worried about their safety because of active shooters, we're also worrying about their safety because of suicide, which is not.

00:53:56.867 --> 00:53:57.755
It's not okay.

00:53:57.775 --> 00:54:02.338
Yes, it's not okay I mean, I was not.

00:54:02.338 --> 00:54:12.463
I was not prepared for all of the tears this year of school starting, and that was not just the kids, it was instructors, too, going.

00:54:12.463 --> 00:54:15.005
What are we doing?

00:54:15.005 --> 00:54:16.847
What is happening?

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Are we just preparing ourselves for a funeral?

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Are we going to end up losing kids over this?

00:54:25.052 --> 00:54:27.856
And I was like no, that's, that's my mantra for this year.

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I will not have a suicide happen while I'm, while I'm teaching yeah, it's wild to me that one of my goals was that you will survive high school, and it was my goal for every student, regardless of sexual orientation.

00:54:38.623 --> 00:54:49.902
Gender identity was like you will survive high school and it's sad that we've gotten to that place and I know we're ending on a relatively dark note, so sorry about that.

00:54:49.902 --> 00:54:56.601
Folks, Please watch cartoons, listen to a funny video, find a cat on the internet or something.

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Turn on your.

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Broadway show tunes.

00:54:59.735 --> 00:55:01.262
Whatever you need to do to get to that happy place.

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But I just want to thank you all and thank you, brandon, for joining me on the episode today.

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I really appreciate it thank you so much.

00:55:10.606 --> 00:55:20.288
Have a great day thank you for joining us on this episode of teaching while queer.

00:55:20.288 --> 00:55:21.329
I hope you enjoyed it.

00:55:21.329 --> 00:55:28.784
If you did make sure to subscribe, wherever you listen to your favorite podcast, leave a review, and that would help out tremendously.

00:55:28.784 --> 00:55:31.860
You can also support the podcast by going to www.

00:55:31.860 --> 00:55:31.860
teachingwhilequeer.

00:55:31.860 --> 00:55:36.722
com and hit support the show.

00:55:36.722 --> 00:55:39.143
Thanks so much and have a great day.

The Art of Inclusion and the Journey of a Queer Theatre Educator

Brandon Box-Higdem