Alex Conway: Breaking Down Barriers for LGBTQIA+ in Education

Teaching While Queer is a podcast for LGBTQIA plus teachers, administrators and anyone who works in academia to share their stories. Hi, my name is Brian Stanton, a queer theater educator in San Antonio, texas. Each week, I bring you stories from around the world centered on the experiences of LGBTQIA folks in academia. Thank you for joining me on this journey and enjoy teaching while queer. Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Teaching While Queer. I'm so excited today for today's episode because we have someone who works as a counselor in education, which is so, so important right now, and so, without further ado, I introduce you to Alex Conway. Hi, alex, how are you doing?

I'm great. Thank you, hi everybody. My name is Alex Conway and for the past decade or so I've been in the field of clinical psychology, including teaching at schools, and currently just launched my new company, lgbtq Joy, to help anybody who's ever felt stigmatized for who they love or how they love rediscover joy.

Awesome. We're going to dive a little bit more into that later in the episode, but I'm so glad that you brought it up because I think one of the things that we experienced, just as minority groups, is a lot of focus on oppression. So I love when organizations come out and they're talking about the joy and like thriving. So I think that's so great what you're doing. But do you mind taking a little trip back in time with me and tell me a little bit about your experience coming to terms, like with who you are and your identity as a student?

Yeah. So as a student, there's a really interesting journey. I also grew up not only in the LGBTQ community as gay and non-binary, but also with learning disabilities, and so as a student before I even knew what sexual orientation was, what gender was, I knew that I was different. I knew that school was not necessarily the place where you'd feel the most comfortable. You go into a classroom, everyone else learns a certain way and you learn a little bit differently, and so that can be a real challenge and, at the same time, when you connect with teachers who see that, who validate that and who take the time to inspire you, it can be even more powerful. It can really help those students who have felt overlooked to feel like school could be a place for them, that school could be a place where they could enjoy going.

Absolutely. I think that's so powerful what you're saying, in that it really just takes an adult to empower these students, to give them that joyful fulfillment, and so there's an interesting parallel, I think, regarding experiences of minority groups and experiences of people with disabilities. I went recently to the PrideWorks conference in New York, and the guest speaker for the keynote was Niall DeMarco, who is fantastic and, for those who may not know him, he is a deaf person. He is an advocate for disabilities and deaf community. He's also a film and television producer, a model. He was on Americanist Next Top Model, great guy, and one of the questions that the students were asking was in the world, do you experience more ableism or homophobia? And so I wanted to maybe get your perspective on that too, to see a different side of, maybe, that question than what I experienced when I went to the conference.

Yeah, I mean, it really comes down to a few things. I looked a lot at the impact of hidden stigma and I think both of these categories in a way can fall under them. That's your orientation, unless somebody speaks to you and says, hello, this is my orientation. Oftentimes you don't know. Now, with things like ableism again, depending on the context, those can also be either visible if you have a physical issue or if you are more intellectual. So there are ways of hiding these aspects of our identity in a way to protect ourselves, and ultimately, how well you do that, or how well you feel you need to do that, really impacts everything else, and so it's hard to compare which one is going to be harder, which one is going to set someone up for something different, because ultimately, what we're looking at is just any sense of difference compared to the norm. And when we do that, whether it's religious identity, whether it's ableism, whether that is sexual orientation, all of these aspects of our identity are equally important, because those are what makes us who we are, those are what makes us unique, and when we go through a society that says that aspect of you is wrong, that aspect of you is different, it really sets us up to feel that not only that one part of us is wrong, but all of us is wrong. And when we feel that all of us is wrong, that really sets us up on a path to having more challenges in life. And so the more that we can really think about it from that basic perspective of accepting differences, understanding them and celebrating them, the more that we can hopefully create a more compassionate world.

Absolutely, I think. A couple of times in recent episodes, I've talked about the idea of masking, and it's a term that, for the most part, is applied to the disabilities community. However, I feel like queer people do this often where, if you can pass without saying something in order to feel safe in an environment, you will do that, and so I'm intrigued, just like as a pedago, just like a person who I love research. I'm so intrigued by the parallels between what I've seen as I do my research on working with students with disabilities and I do my research on working with students who are in the LGBTQ community, and how much overlap exists between the characteristics of what it takes to fit in quote unquote with society.

Absolutely, and I feel all kids have that pressure to fit in, especially when we're talking about younger kids. I want to look like everybody else. I want to act like everybody else. I want to be the popular kid. I'm the popular kid, my life goes well. If I'm not, then school is a place where I don't feel safe. If school is a place where I don't feel safe, how can I possibly think about math class when I'm afraid that Johnny is going to beat me up after school? Yes, we're still learning, in addition, and everyone is learning the same relatively the same concepts. However, without addressing those issues, it really sets it up. And then not only is Tom McGinney struggling with math class, all of his friends and all of his peers are going to also be bullying him. Why are you stupid? Why are you wrong? He's not stupid. He may have a learning disability, he may be struggling with aspects at home and have trauma. He's equally capable of learning the concepts. He just has to have that actual level of support that he may not be getting anywhere else in school except for school.

Absolutely. I've seen definitely a shift, at least from when I was a kid, on acceptance when it comes to learning disabilities, which I've seen really impactful, or I feel is really impactful, especially because recently my husband and I took our daughter to a meeting to set up her IEP her individual education plan and she was like oh yeah, other people get pulled out for math, other people get pulled out for reading. This just means I need some extra help. It's good. And the fact that she had that understanding before we went into the meeting and that this meeting was there to help her is really empowering, because I remember when I was a kid I had to be taken out for speech once a week and I was ostracized. And so I love that there's forward momentum of that idea where it is OK to need the extra support, it is OK to get the help that you need, and that at least she's eight, so at least younger ages are grasping that idea of oh, I just need some help, or they just need some help, as opposed to like what's wrong with you.

Right, and especially how you explain that to the parents. Because oftentimes, if a child has low intellectual ability and so they're struggling in school, they're having a hard time picking up concepts oftentimes the parent does as well and so being able to explain to the parent in a very simple way your kid is not stupid, but your kid is struggling. Here are the areas your kid is struggling in he's just struggling in math, reading, whatever it is. How do we give your child more support Versus what a lot of times they were hearing is why is my kid struggling? Why is my kid stupid? Why is it his fault? And to get away from that it's their fault and to instead say here are ways that we can help. You're not a bad parent, this is not your fault, but what can we do to work together so that we're both on the same team, so that instead of your child just having one supporter figure, they now have two or three or all of us on this team who are there to help up and down?

Absolutely, and it's funny because that adage of it takes a village to raise a child I feel like, as a person who works in education, I get it and I see it so much. And sometimes when we go into those meetings because at least here in the state of Texas I go to a lot of those IEP meetings because I'm a fine arts teacher, which means I'm general education, and they need a representative from general education in the room to talk about the needs of the child, and so I go to these meetings a lot and we're sitting there as a group coming together saying that we're here to support you, and so I think guiding that conversation for the parents is so key, especially because really, until like the mid 90s, early 2000s, we weren't being diagnosed with learning disabilities as a child, if we could pass with like a seat, you know, and so you're right it's very often that parents may also be in the same space as their child, but they never went through that process because, for whatever reason, they were able to pass through or it was so stigmatized that parents at the time would be like, no, we're not getting our child evaluated. So I can't imagine what it's like for you to have to have those conversations with parents. So let's dive a little bit into your experience working with students and parents, and what has that really been like for you and what are the things that you see that are probably common amongst people that they might feel isolated in.

Yeah, so a few things. One, as a parent, oftentimes you don't necessarily go to a parenting class to learn what am I supposed to do? How am I supposed to interact? What am I supposed to raise this child? You may have never had that from a cultural perspective growing up yourself, and so already at a slight disadvantage, if you want to call it. The second is you're not really taught how to deal with a child that is different, and whether that child's difference is their sexual orientation, their gender identity or the way in which they learn. And so oftentimes parents can have mixed reactions of why am I even here in the first place? Why can't you get this together? Why are you different? And so there can be a lot of pushback around that. And if you flip that and instead go from a lens of compassion of saying this is normal, we see a lot of students who are struggling. Your kid is not stupid. I know the kids in class call him stupid. I know maybe his older brother does as well. He's not. He needs extra level of support, and here's what we're going to do to help him. Let's give this a try, let's give this a trial period. Let's see if this is working. Oftentimes, when you go it from that perspective and they start to see oh, now that my kid has extra time to complete his assignment, he's able to do it and he's able to do it well. Now he's proud of himself because he got a good grade. I'm proud of him because he's doing well. I'm happy because I'm not having to leave my work to come to school to talk about these issues. So everybody seems to have a better quality experience, and so by connecting it to these bigger issues helps them to feel like they're not alone. They are not the only child who's struggling, they're not the only parent that's getting called into school to talk about these issues. They have way more support. And so by framing it from the perspective of we're here to be helpful, we're here to be supportive, versus you have the problem child, because no parent wants to have the problem child, no kid wants to feel like they're the problem child, and so framing it through that lens of compassion can be really, really helpful.

Absolutely. I'd love to take that conversation into how you might support a student who is struggling to either come out or they may be struggling with their identity in how do you broach those conversations with parents and students at that point?

I think that's a great conversation. I think that's a really great question, specifically with right now and what's happening in America and what is happening in certain states, and there's two ways of thinking about it. So one I was very lucky and I was very privileged to grow up in a state that was more acceptable. Michigan is not the most accepting state in the country. However, when compared to states like Tennessee and Texas, there's a lot harder states to grow up in, and so to recognize that, yes, it's important to be yourself, it's important to know who you are, being authentic, all of these things are great. However, all of those things are great from the perspective of somebody who has the power and privilege to do so. And if you tell the same person be yourself, you're queer, go and use your pronouns. That's amazing. That's so important in life, and they are in an environment that is less supportive. They are going to put themselves at more risk, and so, even though it's heartbreaking, even though it's difficult to ultimately protect that child, sometimes they need to mask, hide, protect themselves in order to get themselves safe, and so it really depends on where you're at and it really depends on some of those laws that are happening, but ultimately creating a space where you can say it without saying it, so I don't have to say I encourage you to be LGBTQ or come out or do all these things, and we're going to have a parade for you in the classroom. But I can say differences are welcome here. If you feel that there is something that is important that you don't feel comfortable telling me, let me know. I am here as a resource for you. I'm here to support you. No matter who you are, no matter how you learn, I am at least somebody who will take the time to spend extra time with you. In self psychology we have this notion called three coordinates, and that is to be seen for who you are, your uniqueness, your individuality, to feel a sense of connection so I'm connecting you with people who are like minded and to be inspired. And those three needs are universal. Whether you're gay, whether you're straight, whether you're non binary, whether you have learning disabilities, we all have those needs, and so oftentimes, if your child is different, your parent might not realize it and therefore may have a harder time getting those needs met. That being said, any caring adult or any caring figure can help them do it. So if they're not getting their needs met in school. If the parents are very homophobic, if the parents are very strict and say you're just stupid, or whatever, they're getting that message loud and clear at home. What we can do in the classroom is counter it and saying I see you, I'm here for you. Okay, I realize that you're really passionate about ballet Great. Does our class, does our school, have a ballet program? Yes or no? Okay, does any school in the neighborhood have that? Are there any extracurricular teachers? Can they connect you to a ballet teacher in the community so that you can have that sense of feeling soon? And so it goes down to the both, because, yes, you want to encourage them to be themselves, but ultimately you also really need to think about how can I do this in a way that keeps them safe?

Absolutely. I think a lot of what you just said was very powerful, especially thinking about knowing your environment, and so if your environment is not a safe space, then there are some unfortunate realities in what you do need to mask in order to keep yourself safe. Because, ultimately, my goal is not to convert children. My goal is to have LGBTQ children survive childhood and become LGBTQ adults or not, if they figure out that that is not truly their identity. I mean, I've seen students who went through the beginning phases of transition only to realize that wasn't what their identity actually was. Maybe they're non-binary or maybe they just didn't. After beginning the transition they realized that it wasn't. It didn't feel right also, so like they started more exploring to do, and so I think that allowing students to have that freedom is fantastic when it's safe. I think Texas is such an interesting case because I have I've only taught in Texas. When I was teaching in California it was through a nonprofit, so it was like only kids who are taking these theater workshops and whatnot, and so my public school teaching experience in Texas. I have worked with several students who are part of the community, like as a child if I would have even had one other person who was in the community, who was out at school, I would have been like thrilled, I think my senior year, the end of my senior year, I got that one person and it was just like a different ballgame because at least I wasn't alone. And so what I love is that even here in Texas, we're seeing that these students have community and acceptance and they're getting that connection that you were talking about. As far as core values, what was the word you use? You had three core needs. That's right, and so I think it's really fantastic that, even in a place that on the surface is impressive, there are these pockets of acceptance that are allowing people to thrive, despite what is happening in legislative offices.

Absolutely, and the research is pretty clear as well that just having any person who helps them to reach these needs can help set them up on a path to success. So, even if they don't get them at home, even if the parents don't like it maybe they have a grandparent, maybe they have a babysitter, maybe they have a coach, maybe they have something they at least have some person who tells them I see you, for whatever it is that you need to be seen for, let's connect you. So you know I'm not the only person, because, especially in places like this, it can feel like I am the only person on this planet who's gay, and we know that's not true. And so helping them to see okay, you may feel this way for right now, but give it a couple of years, wait, you're only in high school, wait until you get to college, wait until you have more freedom and you can leave home and you can create an environment that is safer, giving them that sense of hope of yes, it's tough now, but that's not always the way it's going to be.

Absolutely, and it's so funny to me because I think about the rhetoric that's kind of tossed around right now where people are like, well, trans people and gay people are really new, they haven't really been around. And I think like I am a mythology person, I love mythology and even like Norse mythology. So Vikings, which we hold up to this, like very masculine, toxic masculine kind of behavior. Right, vikings have stories of Norse gods, like Loki, who were gender neutral. They floated between having, like, an aspect that was male and an aspect that was female, and I'm like these stories have existed for centuries and people are still trying to convince us that gay people started in like 1920.

So absolutely, and how universal it is in many aspects of life In the animal kingdom. There are many documented stories of homosexuality. Ancient Greece, even in Native American culture, some of the members who were two-spirited so that how did the spirit of masculine and the spirit of feminine were actually the most celebrated members of the tribe. And so if we go back to ancient Greece or wherever, this has been a part of society and society's views and it helped change. Sometimes they were the most elevated members of society and they were praised for being able to recognize things that were different and add value to the tribe as a result of it, and sometimes they were not as celebrated.

Absolutely, and I just get fascinated, I guess, just by the shifts in perspective when it comes to historical information, which is hard when we're currently living in a society where facts don't matter. But let's take that conversation we just had and tie it into how you would talk with a parent and how you work with parents who are parents of LGBTQ students.

Yeah. So I was at a charter school in the DC area and the population was predominantly African-American, and so I worked many, many levels. I worked in the preschool, I worked in the elementary and I worked in the high school. And for the high school, we were developing the very first LGBTQ support group, and there was a lot of initial pushback around the idea of I don't want my kid going there, I don't want my kid to be a part of that. Instead, framing the conversation at a deeper level of okay, here's what kids need to be successful. Kids need these three things. Kids want to feel happy. What would you like for your child? Would you like for your child to have a healthy and successful life? Would you like them to find somebody that they are happy with? Or you would like to find a way for them to be successful? Fantastic, I feel the same way, and that's what this club is doing. This club is teaching them how to be themselves, how to have a higher sense of self-esteem, how to be kinder to themselves when they're struggling, how to recognize what anxiety feels like in their body. So when they're in classroom and they learn a new concept and they're struggling how to calm themselves down. So by focusing on these universal skills, they were able to see okay, you're not just going to go into this class, I make my kid gay. First of all, you can't make a kid gay but in their mind, that's one of their fears of if I sign him up for this class. This is what's going to happen, and reframing it in terms of things that are more universal. I'm saying we both want your kids to be happy, and along the next phase is saying okay, I don't like this club because I'm afraid of this. Fine, what do you want for your kid? How do you envision your kid being happy? Great, this club is giving them that opportunity. It is helping them to see that, regardless of who they are, they have a space, and by also including straight students in the club as well and highlighting that straight students are in the club so it's not just black or white, but we have everybody there really, really help to say, oh, okay, these are things that every child should get, and I am now much more open to them going to this class. Versus, if I were to say they're going to walk into the class, there's going to be rainbows on every wall and they're going to leave being gay. That was their disofear. And by coming at it with a lens of compassion and saying here are ways that we can help out. And also recognizing where the parent's discomfort was and being able to address that. Okay, how are my kids going to get here? I work three jobs, like how many? To pick them up. Like, okay, your kid can park pool. So like helping them take whatever the barriers were, regardless of what they were, and just coming at it from a lens of perspective of compassion and instead of saying you're wrong, you're a terrible parent, they must do this, that's not going to get anywhere. But if you flip it and say, ultimately, we both want the same goal for your child, we want them to be happy, we want them to be successful, we want them to learn how to thrive here, they are going to learn different ways to do that and they're going to find a way that does it. So we're able to address it without making it super overt, without making it super confrontational and with getting at something that, at a deeper level, is more universal and therefore a little bit harder to want to push against.

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's so interesting because I do feel like people hear gender and sexuality association, which is the correct term nowadays for a GSA, which was originally Gay Straight Alliance. My school district currently uses GSA's Gay Straight Alliance. I just write GSA on all the things and talk about how it's just an inclusive environment for people to talk through gender and sexuality. But there is this image of it's the Pride Club. It's the place that you go to get splattered with rainbows and you come out with glitter on you and it's just a place to go learn to be overtly gay and really, most of the time, it's just students sharing with each other and supporting each other and giving a space where people can connect on a topic, and it just so happens that that topic is gender identity and sexual orientation.

Absolutely, and helping them learn deeper level skills, helping them learn to be compassionate towards themselves, helping them learn to kind of accept and celebrate differences, whether it is gender and sex, which is oftentimes the focus, but also just differences in general. How do we each kind of come into the room, share aspects of ourselves that we feel are important, whether it is a different religion, whether it is a different this. These are aspects of my identity that are important. Let me hear about aspects of yours. Oh my God, we have so much in common. I didn't realize that you were also non-binary and queer. Great. Now I have an ability to have a friend, and just creating that environment can be so important because they don't have to have all those conversations in that room. They now know when they're walking down the hallway there is somebody else who looks like them, there's somebody else who has the same view, and those friendships can form a little bit more organically.

Absolutely. So you can feel free to pass on this question because I did not prep it in our pre and review conversation, but it's just coming to mind through our conversation here. There are a lot of laws on the dockets in several states right now that are basically saying that if a student comes out at school it is a mandatory reporting to the parents, kind of like it's mandatory reporting when we feel like a student is being abused, whether it be by a student or someone else in their life, that we have to mandatory report that. What advice do you have or what do you think teachers can do in these circumstances to help keep students safe?

That's a great question and I've had a lot of experiences outside of the classroom with similar topics. So, as you were mentioning, as part of mandatory reporting, we do need to talk about child abuse or child neglect. So I would have a child and come to me and say, by the way, these things are happening at home. Even though it's uncomfortable, the very first thing I need to do is talk with the parent and have them come in and let them know. By the way, I'm not saying this is true, I'm not saying this is not Just, very objectively, your child let me know that this instance is happening and here are the next steps. As a result of me being mandated a quarter, there will be somebody from this state coming to your house to check it out. How are you feeling about this? What can I do to be a resource? I'm not here to be a bad guy, but at the end of the day, this is something that needs to happen, and helping them realize that just because the student said this and the child protective services are going to the house does not mean that the child is being taken away, does not mean that being gone away. So psychoeducation in general can be super helpful of just saying, all right, let's have a conversation with the parent, because we don't know if the parent is going to be supportive, if the parent is going to be critical, what's going to happen. And so starting that conversation off from a more neutral perspective can be really helpful to help understand what's happening. And then, depending on the state, if the child actually is being abused, then there's the next step of okay, how do we keep this child safe? And so I'm less familiar with all the intricacies of the state, of what would happen. Can it be taken away? Is that child abuse or not? But having the conversation with the parent and just from a lens, perspective of compassion, and saying, let's hear what is happening at home. Your child needs to feel safe. Okay, your child doesn't feel safe? All right, mike, thank you for telling me this. Let's say worst case scenario All right, being gay is wrong. I hate them All right. Now I'm going to hit them All right. Well, you're not allowed to hit a child. So now that you are escalating this, now child protection services are going to be involved and you may lose your child. Is that what you really want? Some parents might feel really strongly. Ultimately, we are keeping the child safe. Ultimately, our goal is to try to bridge the dialogue, because a lot of times parents don't know either and if we really hold that in mind, it can be really powerful. They may say my child said to me they want to be pansexual and like should I hide off the pots and pans in the house because they're going to sleep with?

them.

No, that's. I don't know how you heard that. That's not what pansexual is. Thank you for bringing that fear to me. That's not what's happening. Here's what pansexual means. Oh, ok, now that I know what that means. I don't like it, I don't understand it, but I love my child and I want them to be safe, and so educating them and what could be helpful is a really powerful tool, and especially if you do it through the lens of compassion, this worked really, really well when I had had to have these conversations with child abuse parents A lot of times understanding, ok, you hit your kid, why Not that you're a monster? Maybe you are, maybe you're not, but you got angry. You got angry because the kid was running around and you had a tough day and you last out at your child Number one. That's not OK. You no longer ought to hit your children. That is, it's not okay. But what can we do to address your anger so that you can express it in a more productive way? Because your kid is a child and especially if your child has learning issues, they're more likely to maybe act up around home because they're scared or whatever. Helping them understand why their child's acting that way can be really powerful. It's not a bad parent. It's not that they're trying to be disrespectful, it's just that they need more support. And same similar for sexual orientation Okay, do you even understand what this word means? Or are you just responding because you've heard of it on the news and you've heard? Any person who says they're gay all of a sudden is now going to suit up a church or do something ridiculous. All right, let's take the time to clarify what that means. Do you still feel the same way? Yes, okay. Well, the sad reality is, a lot of times parents do feel that way. A lot of times they're just not supportive. No matter what you do, no matter how you phrase it, they're not going to be supportive. And recognizing that can be even more powerful because, yes, I don't need to tell, I don't need to out the kid in school, but when I see the kid, you know, sad in the hallway, I can go up to them and give them extra support. I can be more lenient if they are struggling in my classroom and have a hard time with the homework, and I can say okay, let's do this, let's create a space where you're safe. Okay, I'll create a tutoring program for you. I'll take this or I'll do whatever it is in my power so that you have less time at home where it's toxic and more time away from them. Let's find you clubs that you're passionate about. So let's find you a math club that you can spend three hours a week in at home. Now you're spending three hours a week doing something you're super passionate about and not being in a toxic environment, and so recognizing what we can do and what we can't do can be really important, and taking that step to at least trying to communicate to the parent in a supportive way, getting at those universal needs, can hopefully help bypass some of that initial pushback.

What I think is really beautiful about what you said is that it approaches the conversation from two perspectives. One is the perspective of educating the parent, explaining the terminology, just making sure that they understand the situation and kind of getting to how do you feel now? And like that is parent support right. But then the whole thing is wrapped up from the perspective of student support where it's like, oh, I'm seeing this response from the parent and it is not going great, so I can start putting these other supports in place for students to make sure that the student is always supported, and that includes like I absolutely disagree with this and I'll beat the gay out of them. Oh great, well, let me get this other group involved to keep your child safe, because that's the most important thing. And so I think that for those of us who might have to like be forced quote unquote to do these kind of forced outings of students, if we saw these laws come into effect and actually be enforced, it at least provides us a roadmap of how we can handle the conversation in a way that is always 100% about making sure the student is safe. So I appreciate so much how thoughtful you were in that, especially with me putting you on the spot.

And yeah, and we really speak to the end. What is the end goal? The end goal is the student safety and, regardless of how the parent responds, gives you really good data. So if the parent is like, oh, I was just really afraid because they said pansexual, I thought it meant this Great Education, wonderful. And let's also reveal that some parents are just never going to be supportive. They are never going to be like that. Now I know. Now I know that if I tell this parent, they're going to react negatively. They are going to kick the kid out of the house, they're going to disown them, all of these awful things. As hard as it is to hear, that also gives us motivation for what to do next. Okay, now I know I'm going to also give them access to LGBTQ safe home, or I'm going to help them brainstorm. All right, your parents don't like you. Do you have friends in school? Okay, are there friends? Or are there friends more accepting so you can't go home and live with your parents? For these reasons, can we get you into a safe home with Susan or Tommy or whatever? And so recognizing that big picture and seeing ideally it goes well, but the reality is it's oftentimes might not go well, instead of allowing that to be a roadblock, allowing it to be an opportunity to follow up with. Okay. Now what? Who can we get you to? What are the organizations in the area? Do you have any friends? Do you have any support system? What can we do to do that?

I think that addresses the harsh reality that we hear quite often, especially in the LGBTQ community, that sometimes your true family is your chosen family.

And so what I?

think is really great about what you said is that there's this support of adults who can help facilitate a chosen family for someone. And I just thinking off the top of my head about the different schools I've worked at and I can absolutely see the parents who would step up and help in that situation and how much love those kids would get, and so I think that having some options going into these harder conversations is really wonderful.

And also giving the students some, some element of control can be so powerful. Okay, how do you think your parents so, before you even have to the conversation? We did this a lot when it was with child abuse. Okay, thank you for disclosing the fact that you have this traumatic experience. As you know, I'm a mandate reporter and I'm going to need to make that call. Now, how do I make that call? Comes down to what would be best for you. Do you want to be in the room with me? Do you want to talk about it first? What? What level of involvement do you want Now? What do you want moving forward? Okay, your parents didn't respond. I'm here for you. You know. What can we do next? All right, I think Susan might be an appropriate person. Great, would you feel comfortable with me talking to Susan's parents to see if they would like that? Giving them some levels of control can be really powerful, especially in families where they fear they have no control, they have nobody. And to say, to actively show them. You do, you have me, you have these friends in school, you have the art teacher, you have whatever it is, you have these layers of support and just because this didn't go well, you're also teaching them that important lesson of children's family and that lesson will carry with them throughout life.

Absolutely so. I want to go ahead and wrap up with my my big question. Someone referred to it as like the thesis question. But what can people working in education, parents, students, what can we all do to help move the needle towards inclusivity for LGBTQ students?

I think the earlier we talk about it, the earlier that we give people the options to choose, the better, and doing that in a way that gets at deeper level issues that are more universal. So teaching self-compassion at an early age can be really helpful. So when you have a student who's there with a math test saying, okay, how can you be kind of yourself, how do you not beat yourself up? So when you have a student who says, oh my God, tommy just said I'm gay. Okay, well, is gay a bad thing? Stopping it, instead of allowing it to the kid to be bullied for 20 or 30 minutes, just saying stopping that behavior early on and saying that's not a really kind thing to say to people. And it's tough, especially when I was in my charter school. There's a lot of homophobia and there's a lot of homophobia from younger kids. I'd hear third graders walking down the hallway beating each other up. There's a lot of work that needs to be done, but by framing it from the perspective of being kind to each other, being compassionate to each other, accepting diversities, even having little many workshops, okay, let's all go around the room and say one thing that's different about us. I'm different because I have green eyes. I'm different because I'm Jewish. I'm different because of whatever. Allowing each person a moment to just do that can be super powerful. Another really helpful tool I had was I called them confidence walks. So I would start the room, I would start the session by playing something like RuPaul or whatever the favorite song was, and allowed the kid to walk into the room and just I'd have little fans for them to clap and just say, hi, my name is this, and then whatever they want, sit down. And it was really great for a few reasons, because a lot of this kids had a lot of energy and so allowing them that time and that space to just be themselves was really helpful to release that energy. And then every person would clap. So, no matter what the thing was, they felt that they had a room full of people who were cheering them on for whatever it was, whether it's a silly dance move, whether it was whatever came to them by it. And the students who were a bit more introvert would just kind of comment and say hi, you know, whatever, my name is this, sit down. And maybe they didn't feel comfortable, but allowing students the opportunity to really be themselves and to walk into a room that could potentially be really scary, and to be celebrated for that difference or just who they are gives them a lot of confidence to do that outside of the classroom. And so the more that we kind of make the classroom a chosen family, a support system, the more that they kind of learn those skills in there and hopefully start applying them afterwards. It's also just a lot of fun and it's a way to break up some of the more structured classes that we would teach them.

Absolutely. I used to have a thing because I teach theater and so we do, you know acting where when a student was late I would tell them to just own it and walk in and they'd have to do their like reality TV entrance, Like there's props on a table by the door and so they could clap a fan and be like I am here to slay and just like, like we're not going to shame you for being late, we're not really celebrating it, but we're just walking in with confidence because sometimes, like sometimes, there's so much shame around something as little as I'm late to class, and so I'm late, I'm not. Yeah, that I this action makes me a bad person thing that happens in kids' brains is something that I really try to work against, and so I always focus on choices and behaviors as opposed to like this is who you are. Oh, that was an unfortunate choice that was made, because then it gives you the opportunity to make a different choice next time.

Absolutely, and that's something that can be so powerful. So, in the ballroom community, which is something I love, and for those who don't know, the ballroom community is typically members of color who have formed their own families and have formed their own ways of celebrating their own uniqueness and diversity and I think those are and form their own families or support around those differences. And I think that is an element that can be taught in classrooms as well, of okay, let's go through and all talk about one thing we're proud of, one thing, we're excited about, one thing we like, about ours, and let's have the group celebrate that, because oftentimes that's not what happens, and especially in school and especially for students who are neurodivergent. They are well, I'm different and I'm wrong, and that's not the case. It's more like an apple to an orange, and if you're the only orange in the classroom full of apples, then of course you're going to feel like something about me is fundamentally wrong and in reality it's not wrong, it's just different. And so allowing people to say I'm an orange, I'm really good at math, I'm really good at reading, I'm really good at history, I love dinosaurs, whatever it is that thing that they love, that they're passionate about allowing them that opportunity to share it with others and every person to applaud. So even if I hate dinosaurs, or even if I hate oranges or whatever, I'm going to still be there in the classroom and clap when that person says whatever it is they need to say, and that can be something really palp.

Yes, it can. Alex? Thank you so much for joining me today. This is a really wonderful conversation and I hope that all of you at home enjoyed this episode and we will see you next time.

Thank you so much.

Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Teaching While Queer. If you're enjoying the episodes, please leave a review. Wherever you are listening to our podcast, check us out on Instagram at teachingwhilequeer, and if you're interested in being on season two of teachingwhilequeer, please visit teachingwhilequeercom. Have a great day.