Teaching While Queer: The Transformational Journey of Chris, a Non-binary Transmasc Educator

Bryan: 0:05

Teaching While Queer is a podcast for 2S LGBTQ+ educational professionals to share their experiences in academia. Hi, I'm your host, Bryan Stanton, a theater pedagogy and educator in New York City, and my goal is to share stories from around the world from 2S LGBTQ plus educators. I hope you enjoy Teaching While Queer. Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Teaching While Queer. I am your host, Bryan Stanton, and I'm so excited to have Chris with me this evening. Hi, Chris.

Chris: 0:42

How are you doing? Hi, I'm doing well. How's? How are you?

Bryan: 0:47

I am great. I'm trying to stay cool. It is very, very, very hot in San Antonio right now.

Chris: 0:52

Yeah, I can imagine. That.

Bryan: 0:55

Yeah, we've had over 100 degree days, I swear. The last three weeks or so it's been wild. Tell us a little bit about yourself. Where are you from? What do you teach? How do you identify within the community?

Chris: 1:08

Yeah, so my name, as I said earlier, is Chris. I identify as non-binary transmask, I use the pronoun C them and I teach high school English in rural Montana.

Bryan: 1:23

Oh rural. Montana. So have you always been from Montana, or is this a place that you moved to as an adult?

Chris: 1:33

I've lived in Montana since third grade and before that I lived in Idaho, so it's really, really has been home my entire life.

Bryan: 1:42

Fair enough and tell us a little bit about your childhood. What was it like for you as a queer child?

Chris: 1:48

So actually I wasn't out as a child. A couple of my friends joke and they're like we knew we were waiting. When I was younger, I actually what fell on the other side of this and I was fairly bigoted. My Facebook likes to remind me that I used to post a lot of problematic things.

Bryan: 2:13

Don't you hate those Facebook memories? Sometimes you look at them and you're like face palm, like what am I? Doing here.

Chris: 2:21

Very, very big face palms when it comes to women's rights, when it comes to people of color and like the fact that like problems exist and I am a person of color, so it's weird that I was so adamant in thinking that, like any sort of social justice was wrong, it was definitely a change going on.

Bryan: 2:46

That kind of intersectionality has always been so curious for me, just like getting to that place of like I am a person of color, or I am also trans, or I am also queer and I am also against those things, or I was against those things. It's such an interesting, such an interesting place to be. What do you think not made you but like, how do you think that you ended up on that side of things as a young person?

Chris: 3:20

Definitely the environment I grew up in, so Montana, is a red state. My parents were, well, are fairly conservative, and then, additionally, I was just growing up. I ended up coming to Christianity and the church I was part of was very, very anti anything social justice, anything, liberal, gay people were the bane, you know. And so that was just what I had learned and what I'd grown up around, and I did never really sat well with me, being like pushing against queerness as a whole, specifically, but because I'd always be like I can still love you, I just disagree. And I never sat the best with me because it really felt like it was a cop out, like I was kind of lying to myself. And then, as I got older, I was like, oh, I was.

Bryan: 4:23

Yeah, he just didn't know, maybe, how much you were lying to yourself.

Chris: 4:27

No.

Bryan: 4:27

Yeah, and what was your journey like on self discovery? Then you came out as an adult and you've got this, this relatively large pendulum swing, for yourself.

Chris: 4:38

Yes, it's been a wild journey. I actually came out. It was kind of during COVID. I feel like a lot of people went through a lot of self discovery when we're locked inside our homes for nine months.

Bryan: 4:52

Yeah would you kind of spend some time by yourself? You learn some things.

Chris: 4:56

Yeah, and so it was an interesting experience because I was already married to a man when I ended up coming out, at first as by, because I was just like, oh, and then I feel like it's a canon event that whenever you start to question your personality, you also start to question your gender and it just kind of happened. But he's been insanely supportive. So I'm really lucky and I feel like I've had it a little easier. My, like, my journey of self discovery has been a little easier because of the profession we're in. First off, a lot of other teachers are fairly understanding of queer identities, or at least getting to be there, and I'm lucky with the friends that I've made in my profession that have been insanely supportive. And I'm lucky that my husband has been insanely supportive as I've kind of clicked hard reset on who I was.

Bryan: 5:56

Yeah, for sure, I find that so interesting. I also love the fact that you use canon event like that's a, that's a thing now. Thank you, intox Spider-Verse. But I'm absolutely there with you where, like for me, I spent a long time understanding that I was gay, a gay male, and then it was during COVID that I understood that I was maybe not male and just like I consider myself queer, non-binary and I use he they pronouns and we'll see, you know, if that's the end of the journey or if there's more more to come. But like I just never felt right with the idea of like you're a man, you know, like be a man, like that's just not it's not my vibe.

Chris: 6:51

That was a lot of like femininity for me because I'm AFAB and I remember growing up being fairly tomboy you know this the cliche. And then people told me you're not a real woman unless you X. And they started putting these arbitrary things that like didn't mesh with who I was and I was like, well, I guess I have to be a real woman. And so then I I went through really, really hyper femininity, even after I came out as non-binary, when I was using she they pronouns I was. It was hyper feminine. And then I was like no, I don't have to do any of this, like I don't have to cling on to my femininity because it's not authentic to me.

Bryan: 7:40

Yeah, and my queer, my queer theater class right now that I'm taking, we talked about interpolation, which is basically when society or other people basically put you in a box before they even get to know you, and so that's the idea of like, oh, you're a girl, so you need to be hyper feminine, and if you're a man, you need to be hyper masculine. A friend of mine was saying that, like, as a lesbian, he struggled with people trying to connect with him and the small town in Texas, and then when he came out as trans, they were like, oh great, you go fishing, we'll go on the fishing trips, you know, like we'll go bowling. And he was like, yes, but also, like, I want to manicure and a pedicure, like, and also, these things don't have to be so separate from each other. And it's so interesting because society does that so frequently and at a very young age. Like it was weird for me as a parent to hear my child tell me about gender norms because she learned them at school, you know.

Chris: 8:50

And you know, queer teachers are the ones who are pushing our agendas on kids, right when we have, like my nieces and nephews come home and they're like already talking about how, like oh, that book has two boys kissing, it's a bad book. And I'm just like why? Why is this a thing?

Bryan: 9:09

Yeah, absolutely. Or like how many marriages my nine year old went through in kindergarten, like she was like married, like I. Today I married this person, and then yesterday I married this person. Tomorrow I have a new wedding and it's going to be with this person and I'm just like, oh, okay, like we really are jumping into this like boy and girl get married business very young.

Chris: 9:35

Yeah, why do I? Why do I feel like I had that same exact experience? I have distinct memory of middle school of me having like a wedding ceremony in the like playground with my at the time boyfriend and I'm just like what?

Bryan: 9:56

Yeah, it's so wild, right, these things that, like parents will be like, oh, that's so cute. And then you, as an adult, look back and you're like what was I thinking? What is even happening right now? Yeah, it's just as fun as Facebook memories.

Chris: 10:14

So many things you just get to look back on and be like huh.

Bryan: 10:18

So how has your experience and your growth as an adult impacted your teaching and kind of informed who you are as a teacher?

Chris: 10:29

It's kind of the core of it. I know a lot of queer teachers have to be like, no, I don't push my queerness, I don't. That's not at the forefront of my class or anything. But I do feel like my queerness is at the forefront in my class, and not because I'm trying to get kids to be queer, but one of my main rules in my syllabus is that we will discuss many things, but things that we will never debate and I'm the speech and debate coach things we will never debate are things fundamental to identity. So gender, race, sexuality they're not up for discussion because they're not discussable, they're not something that you can debate. Someone's fundamental, like things fundamental to them, and so that's at the forefront of everything I do, and part of it is because people want to debate my queerness all the time, because they're like you're in a straight passing relationship, you married a man, you aren't on TXYZ, and so they debate and they try and push back against this thing. That's authentically me and so like that's kind of recently how my queerness has really informed my teaching and my classroom and what I do. But even before that, I want my classroom to be that safe place, right, a place where kids can come to me and teaching in rural Montana. That is really hard to find, and so if that means I have to kind of put a target on my head and make myself like very visibly queer and make it very well known that I am the queer teacher and it means that a kid has a place to sit at lunch or a place to stay if they get to the school early or it's just someone to come out to, then it's worth the pain from other people, I guess.

Bryan: 12:33

I think it's so interesting because there is a lot of that, especially in the trans community of being in you're in this heterosexual relationship or you're in a perceived heterosexual relationship. Or for bi and pansexual people they have that same kind of dichotomy world Because your relationship status is this, your identity cannot be this, yeah, and so I find that incredibly interesting. I was just reading a play for my class that was called Drawing the Circle and in it there's a monologue from this woman who is kind of venting a little bit about the transition of her boyfriend because she was a lesbian and now she's in this perceived heterosexual relationship and she almost feels the need to say that he's trans so that she can own her own queerness. And it's just so interesting how that idea we were talking about of interpolation or society is like this is who you are, because this is what I see Can have some really, really impactful things happen to you internally.

Chris: 13:47

Yeah, and that's a lot of internal stuff that I have going on too. So part of being as visible as I am is it's kind of my own defiance against that internalized homophobia, internalized transphobia, internalized. Everything that I have from my childhood is I have to be visible and present and make my queerness central to my classroom because I don't want to hide it and I don't want people thinking I'm hiding it.

Bryan: 14:19

What are some things that you do to help address your internalized anti-queer? I guess ideology or isms that you believe before those still have to show up at some point in your life. So how do you interact with that? How do you push yourself forward in a new direction?

Chris: 14:38

So therapy is really important.

Bryan: 14:41

We love therapy yes.

Chris: 14:44

Mental health is tremendously important and being able to talk with someone you trust to kind of unravel that has been really helpful for me, because I still go through these moments where I'm just like, oh my gosh, I'm bad, Like inherently there's something about me that's bad. But then I also I get a ton of like euphoria and being able to unpack it in the way I dress. So I've always loved clothes and so I kind of use that as a way of unraveling it and being like look how great I look and I'm being authentic.

Bryan: 15:23

I love that. I mean, finding those moments of euphoria is so important For myself. I find my euphoria comes through in like bridging femininity and masculinity through nails. Like I get my nails done all the time and I've just started getting like chrome powder put on it so they're like I look like as shiny as a sports car and I freaking love it. Like it to me is that like that bridge between the two where I don't feel hyper masculine but I don't feel hyper feminine and I get to just kind of like be yeah and so yeah. Finding that moment of euphoria is fantastic and I love that you're doing with the clothes. It makes me think of the song from a musical. The musical is called Iida, but there's a song that is my find my strongest suit. She's talking about wearing like dresses and how dresses always make her feel more confident. But it's the same idea of like your clothing is something that can help you boost and build that confidence and like express yourself in a way that makes you stronger.

Chris: 16:29

Yeah, and it makes me visible as well. I wear a lot of like kind of dark academia style when I'm teaching and one day I decided because I needed to do laundry and I was like I just got find something to wear and it's Friday so we could wear jeans. So I wore black skinny jeans and a cardigan and I had one of my trans students be like why are you dressed like every other English teacher? This is not true. And they were so upset I was like I'm sorry, I'll go back. I'll go back, Just got to be laundry.

Bryan: 17:06

I just see you with like a black turtleneck and a blazer what?

Chris: 17:13

I have more exactly that.

Bryan: 17:15

It's like that idea, for I don't know if it was the 90s or whatnot, but like a beatnik, and my high school English teacher was that kind of dude with like the little goatee and like turtlenecks and a blazer and it's just like that's kind of what I see. That's awesome. I love it. It's a great style.

Chris: 17:38

I have so many blazers, it's ridiculous.

Bryan: 17:42

They're so great, especially if you live some place where it gets cold as you do.

Chris: 17:47

Yeah, it's about nine months of the year. I can wear my blazers.

Bryan: 17:51

Here it's hot nine months of the year, so there is no blazer. It's like you can wear it in the car, and you can wear it in the house Soon as you go someplace. Nope, you got to take that off.

Chris: 18:06

You don't get to wear it.

Bryan: 18:08

Turtleneck? Never heard of it, absolutely not. But let's talk a little bit about your experience. You are in rural Montana and do you get to work with a lot of queer students at your school?

Chris: 18:23

Shockingly, there have been quite a few, a lot more than I thought there would be at my school. So there's only about 270 kids, nine through 12, at my school. So it's small and that can help you. I joke that, like my speech and debate team, is realistically just a beard for the like queer student union. Yeah absolutely, because I just have so many kids on my team who they join the team and then, as they get comfortable with me, they're like, hey, by the way, I'm queer in XYZ and I'm like, okay, and I'd never make it a big deal because I wouldn't, make it a big deal. If someone were to be like I have a boyfriend, like if a girl were to come up to me and be like I have a boyfriend, I wouldn't be like thanks for telling me.

Bryan: 19:21

Oh, my God congratulations, yeah.

Chris: 19:25

And so I think like part of like the fact that I don't make a big deal of it is why so many more have come forward, because when I first started at my school, I was talking with some coworkers and they were like talking about how they're like, yeah, we have a couple, a couple of queer kids and I'm like, oh, cool, cool, yeah, and they're like, yeah, I call like one every class or so and I'm like, oh, all right, and then I have just like like a pod of kids now that come and they're just like hello, I'm trans, I am a gender, I am bi, I am pan, I'm lesbian, whatever they wanna identify as and I'm just like all right, well, would you like me to refer to US? Yeah, what pronouns would you like me to use? And can I use them whenever on the team or just when it's you and me? Yeah, and I have like systems set up for these because I want it to be safe for them to feel like they can start exploring that difference without having to come out to everyone if they don't wanna do that.

Bryan: 20:39

I love that you just laid out some things that I wanna like clarify for everybody, because I think it's a really fantastic thing to help with being an affirming person. Is that one you asked how do you want me to identify you? Two, what are your pronouns? And then three, where and when is it safe to use them? So that's incredibly important because I've had students where I can't use those pronouns with their parents, or maybe, like you said, they've just said that to you and they're not ready to talk to everybody else. So the system that you've created is so incredibly affirming because it actually gives the control to that student.

Chris: 21:19

Yeah and like. So at the start of every school year I ask my kids to do this all about me, presentation and I'm like you don't present it to anyone else, you just make a PowerPoint for me and I click through it and I learn about you, and one of the things I have on it is preferred pronouns and then preferred name, and then I explain to them. I'm like, for example, like instead of Christina, I like to be called Chris. And I'm like obviously I paint that in a nickname way and not necessarily in like hey, this is gender affirming. Or if someone is Mackenzie and they wanna be called Mack, I was like but also if you have other names, and I take every single name seriously. I actually had a student this year who thought he was being funny and was like this is what I wanna be called. And I was like okay, are you sure that's what you wanna be called? And he's like yeah, and I was just like you want me to call you it just in my classroom or everywhere? And he's like everywhere. And I went the entire year calling this kid this ridiculous nickname on his parent forms that I said home in class and I told him if he ever wanted to change it. You just had to let me know and he didn't. And after a while he started writing it as his name on his assignments and later he had told me he's like I was actually just trying to make fun of this whole like being able to change your name thing.

Bryan: 22:51

I didn't think you would actually call me that and I'm like why I'm like I had a conversation with a student right at the end of the school year where I was like I accept each person with what they tell me in a moment, Like that moment, and so like we were talking about something and he was like, oh, I told you I'm gay. And I was like, yeah, and at some point you also told me that these flowers were for your girlfriend. Like I accept what you tell me in the moment that you tell me it, because that's how we should receive people. You should receive people, especially young people, absolutely, and it's not gonna do any harm to call someone by a nickname. I mean, how many kids go through their life being called a nickname or a middle name and it's not a big deal. But as soon as it's gender affirming, there's like a huge issue for some folks.

Chris: 23:48

And we're pushing it on them too. We're forcing them to change their gender because they asked for this other name.

Bryan: 23:55

Totally, and how many like how many Christina's go by Chris, you know, or Christine's and or any feminine name that could be shortened like Alex. How many people go by these names that cross gender boundaries just as nicknames, and it's perfectly fine, exactly, and if we just treat everybody with that same kind of respect, the world would be such a happy place.

Chris: 24:23

I know and that's why I tell, like in my classroom, I'm like you have more in common with me because my school is very conservative. Like you're more in common with me than you do with any politicians that you're trying to support. You know, I'm like we know each other. We go fishing, we talk about fishing all the time. We talk about, you know, driving on Montana roads or whatever. We have these connections. I was just like does that make me a bad person if you learn other things about? Cause it was found out that I was bi and people were like I don't know who Warren is. And then they were like oh, it's the bi English teacher. And I was just like this is my identity now.

Bryan: 25:09

I have the bi English teacher. Thank you, thank you next time.

Chris: 25:13

Or the liberal English teacher, even though I think two of us were liberal, I'm pretty sure.

Bryan: 25:20

But you're the one.

Chris: 25:21

I'm the one.

Bryan: 25:22

Yeah, I love that identity politics of labels right. And we can be so many things like I'm a dad, I'm a singer, I'm an actor, I'm really a director and technical director more than you know those other things but I'm a dad first and foremost. But what most people hear is that I'm queer.

Chris: 25:46

Yeah.

Bryan: 25:47

And I'm non-binary and that's the entirety of my identity. And it's so funny because, like that idea of like yeah, I don't mind it, but why do they have to flaunt it? And I'm like literally living in a heterosexual world or a cisgender world, like everything is heterosexual, cisgender, and like I'm over here just like, yeah, I run a podcast for queer teachers, so why is everything about your life got to be so queer? And I'm like like two things, like I'm queer and I have a podcast, what it's the theater.

Chris: 26:21

That's two things.

Bryan: 26:23

Oh, you're right. You're right, I do theater, so obviously I have the trifecta. Now I'm just all queer all the time, which is not a lie. I just don't understand where other people get to say those things.

Chris: 26:38

It's OK if I say it. Yeah, I know. And for people who, like us, who use non-conventional pronouns, so they them, we have to make that known, otherwise they're going to see her us.

Bryan: 26:55

Oh, absolutely. It's funny and I'm such a stickler on it too that someone posted something today and they were like Sam Smith concert, can't wait to see him next week. And I was like they, them. You have to be cognizant, you have to be aware and make sure that you are doing those things Because, like you said, especially in the structure of your relationship, you and I have this ability to pass and some of you, I understand, are watching this podcast now and you can disagree all you want, but we have this ability that we could pass as straight people, you know, because you're in what most folks could perceive as a heterosexual relationship. And I'm like generic white guy. If it weren't for the fact that I have teal in my hair and a septum piercing, maybe people wouldn't know. I don't know, I'm not overly, you know, effeminate, I'm the right balance. But that kind of masking and passing is like it's frustrating at times. I actually I got a tattoo last summer it was a summer before, I don't remember and I got it with like rainbow flesh design underneath it because I was like you know what? There are lots of people who can't wear or who wear their like, their difference on their skin, and I don't have that, and so at least now like I've got something to myself that's like this is who I am inside and out, and it's very visible.

Chris: 28:48

Yeah, I mean, that was what cutting my hair off was Like obviously women can have short hair and women do have short hair but like it was a really big sense of euphoria to be able to like run behind If I'm like wearing mass healing clothes, I'm binding, whatever. You cannot tell that I was born a female and a lot of the stuff that I wear, and I have had many people be like sir and then I turn around and they're like sorry, ma'am, and I'm like don't, don't, ma'am me, don't you ma'am me?

Bryan: 29:25

How dare you? It's funny, because someone was like what is the gender neutral, sir, ma'am? And my students actually came up with like whenever in theater, when you're, when you're doing something, it's generally respectful to like yes, ma'am, yes sir, especially here in Texas, because it's like the South right. And so my students and I came up with AI captain.

Chris: 29:50

I was like so so done.

Bryan: 29:53

Everybody can. Now, whenever I give some sort of instruction, to let me know that you've heard it. You AI captain works perfectly. It's gender neutral. Anybody can be a captain Like. It's just an acknowledgement that I heard and understand the words that you're saying.

Chris: 30:10

I love that. I see I should just get a cap for my classroom, just so I could be like I'm captain.

Bryan: 30:18

Oh yeah yeah, I'm not sure. I'm not sure if I, if I like, I've really been thinking a lot about using mix and I'm not sure whether or not I'm comfortable with that, but my students would actually like start calling me cap and I was like, huh, that like it doesn't bother me, because it also goes along with this like culture that we created, where I'm being respectful for you by saying that word. So let's just like imagine like captain Next year on my door.

Chris: 30:57

Yeah, I try mix. Just my friend uses mix. They're a queer teacher in Washington and it just didn't feel right because it still felt like I'm. This probably comes from the fact that, like I'm a fab, it sounds too much like miss. I hate that and so I just drop it all and I'm like call me Warren. Please, just call me Warren.

Bryan: 31:24

Yeah, a lot of my students call me Stanton. It's also like I don't know there's something about like male identifying or male perceived teachers where, like, everybody thinks you're a coat, so then they're like they'll just call you whatever like the sports thing is like right, stanton, you call people by their last names in sports. It's interesting, um, there's a couple of things I wanted to touch on, um, before getting like through the general line of question. The first is one for the audience. Just in case they're not familiar with the term, would you mind explaining what a fab is for everyone?

Chris: 31:58

Oh yeah, so a fab is assigned female at birth, so it was born a female, but I don't identify as it anymore.

Bryan: 32:07

And then if you were assigned a male at birth, you would be a MAB and perfect. And so those folks who may not know that term, I like to have those folks who use the terms identify them, as opposed to like me mansplaining or captain's planning captain's planning captain's planning the situation. And then the other thing is, like you did bring up binding and so would you mind talking a little bit about binding and like safe practices, especially for anybody who might be younger that stumbles upon this Like I think it's so important to talk through safe practices for binding.

Chris: 32:48

Oh yeah, definitely. I had a couple of kids who, like, had confided in me that they were binding, and so then, and they're on my team, and so we're very busy for like an entire Saturday, and so I did have to come and find them, and so that's one of the biggest safety things with binding. Rewind, let me explain what binding is. Binding is what AFABs so people who are born with breasts and whatnot do in order to, like, present flatter, and so there's a lot of different ways you can do that. You can use like tape, you can use a wrap, and then there's also binders that companies actually make that are designed for that. That is the path I would recommend, or taping, if you know what you're doing and you've followed some good instructions. People use a lot of like ACE bandages, and they're just not as safe and they can result in a lot of like shifting of your ribs and also constricting of your lungs, and it's just really unhealthy, and so it's hard if you're growing up in a place where you can't get that, and so people will resort to more dangerous methods.

Bryan: 34:08

Absolutely so. Then you were saying that you were having a busy day on a Saturday and then you had to go find your students. Is there a situation in which it's too long to bind?

Chris: 34:19

Yeah, so it depends on the binder, but generally it is eight hours. You don't want to bind more than eight. The one that I have, the company says eight to ten, but I start feeling it at eight and will you usually go and change out or replace it. And then, because, like what it's doing is it's essentially like just suctioning your chest down so that, like you're flat and you don't have to like have dysphoria from your breasts, and it can be really like it can cause people to pass out and, like I said, shift bones and shift like the structure, especially in young people who are still developing, and can cause long term issues. And so I am. If you can find someone you trust and you tell them that you're binding, they can help make sure that you're not binding for too long. Or if you set a timer for yourself on it. But the it's really hard if you experience a lot of dysphoria to then try and bind for too long and my biggest piece of advice is just, I know it sucks to take that off, but don't do it, because we want you to live longer, yep.

Bryan: 35:48

I agree with that Absolutely and honestly, like, I live my life by alarms, so I think that setting that timer is a fantastic option and like something that maybe people won't have in their forefront of their mind of like what are the resources I literally have in my pocket to help me with this situation? The other thing I would mention is especially for folks in a rural area, like there are nonprofits nationwide that will send you binders that are safer than using, like an ACE bandage or something like that, and so I encourage folks, if you can, if you have the ability, to explore and see if you can find those resources, because they exist, they are out there for you and literally they're there to make sure you safely get through these years until you get to a place where you can either purchase your own binder safely or you get to a place where you're well ready to fully transition and you start to have top surgery.

Chris: 36:51

And when you do like end up going out and getting your first binder, do the research. Spend so much time researching, because there are some companies that are just profiting rainbow capitalism off of your transness, your queerness, the things that make you you, and they don't care necessarily about your safety. And so there are tons of trans run companies out there that I highly recommend going for those. Tomboy is a really good one, and then GC2B is a great one, but, like, don't just buy them off Wish or whatever random thing, because they're just as dangerous.

Bryan: 37:37

Yeah, I will put the link to both of those websites in the show notes for this, because I think it's incredibly important to stay safe, especially for young folks who are just coming into their identity. Let's do it safely. Let's get you through this without permanent damage to your body. So you mentioned earlier a little story about somebody who was kind of like jokingly using the name option. Have you ever encountered genuine anti queer behavior in your classroom and, if so, how do you combat that?

Chris: 38:16

All the time. It's girl Montana, where, like, we have people who will be like God, they're so weird, they're just like furries or whatever. I don't know why my school's obsession is with like making comments on people that they don't even interact with. The school may be small, only 270 people, but they keep to themselves and there are no pods and yet somehow they still have to comment on what's happening. So they'll bring it up in class and they think that it's like side conversations or they'll misgender someone in class like I do have students who use like they them pronouns openly in class and also like or the other side, so like he, him as an AFAB, and so like I do correct those and I'll be like so they were doing blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, or he was doing blah, blah, blah, blah, blah and so like that's one way is like by not making it a big deal. But then when there's like really problematic rhetoric being said in my class, I do pull people out, and thankfully we were lucky enough to have a school counselor whose daughter is queer, and so I could just kind of pull them out and be like do we need to talk about this? Why are you behaving this way. And they're like well, they're blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, and I like make them talk through like their issues with this or whatever is going on. And then by the end of it, they're like, oh, it doesn't really matter. And I'm like, oh yeah, why? Why are you making it harder in class? And so I don't think anything's super bad, I guess. Besides, except for against me, I've had yeah, but nothing against my kids, which is good.

Bryan: 40:18

That's good. I mean, for the most part I feel like kids get it. But I think that's so interesting because a lot of the times I'll find that like it's just the easy joke to go to. Yeah, you know, like maybe they're pissed about something else or like something legitimate that that person did, but instead of addressing what that thing actually was, they'll just be like I'm going to call you a derogatory term or say something negative about your gender expression or identity.

Chris: 40:48

Yeah, I feel like like anti-queer rhetoric doesn't go on as often in my classroom Because from the start it's like no, we don't debate this. And when we even kind of go down the path of like gay marriage or whatever, I'm like no, we're moving on, we're going back to the book, we're going back to our topic, we're not talking about this because we do not debate this. And I don't think that happens in other classrooms, and so I've heard that there is a lot of negative talk in other classes from my queer kids, but I don't get it that much in my class.

Bryan: 41:32

Faridah, if it's harder to say it to your face or in front of you, what are some things that you think that schools can do better in order to create inclusive environments for LGBTQ students?

Chris: 41:46

Not get mad at teachers for asking for preferred pronouns.

Bryan: 41:50

That's one I have been there.

Chris: 41:54

The big one. It's such a small thing to be like hey, what do you want to be called? How do you identify, what are your pronouns? And then just to get pushback against that for like one small optional question on my all about me presentation and then I get to talk to you about it. So that's one thing is like letting people ask math. And the big one at my school is we're not allowed to have a like, a GSA or a saga, so like we can have a gay straight alliance club, we can't have the sexuality and gender alliance, like we can't have any of those things because we don't really have like clubs. And I've tried starting other clubs and I've been told no. And then I tried bringing the Trevor project like to my school and my superintendent seemed pretty like yeah, just talk to your building principal.

Bryan: 42:49

And then I talked to him and he was like no, and I'm like well, Just after I left the first school that I taught at, there was a pushback against having like rainbows. Like rainbow obviously means gay, so no more rainbows Like K through 12. And I'm like, what about those poor kindergarteners? Like how are they going to learn the colors? But there was also a push to remove the Trevor project crisis hotline from classrooms, despite the fact that we had, like, the suicide hotline up there and other crisis lines. But there was that specific one. There was a push about getting it removed from classrooms, which I find mind boggling, like literally anyone can call that phone number. It just happens to be geared towards queer, identifying kids who are in crisis and everybody should have the access to a support that they feel comfortable with.

Chris: 43:50

Yeah, one thing I think our school, my school, did really well is we had like for spirit day, we had a white lie day and kids where you put like I like pickles or something on your shirt when you actually don't like pickles and like that's the joke, I guess. And some kids had put like I, like the LGBTQ community and like our school shut, like we don't get to do white lie day anymore, and then they made all of those kids change and put different shirts on them and so I was like at least they did that well. So I think, like targeting bullying at the room, like in actually taking it seriously when kids are like oh, that's gay being, like no, we don't use gay as like an insult or as like a derogatory thing in the situation. And just like I think a unified front is important and even if you don't necessarily have your admin on board for that, you and teachers because there are tons of teachers who love their kids, like and will put that effort forward. And my closest friends is just a straight ally who was like that is non binary and I was like let me try my best to explain as a newbie in this world, a newbie in me. Yeah, a newbie in me, and you know, until she is just as supportive of those queer kids where she'll be. Like, what are your pronouns? And I heard that you want to be called this. Can I call you that? Yeah, you can call me that as well.

Bryan: 45:35

That's fantastic. It's good to have those folks around you. If you were given the opportunity to talk with a brand new educator who is a part of the queer community, what advice would you give them for that first year to make sure that they can be their authentic self in the classroom?

Chris: 45:52

Yeah, my advice is like to like not make a big deal of it. So all teachers at the beginning of the school year we do some sort of like this is me Hello presentation and I just put in my pronouns into it and I put like like photos of me and my friends, even if like at pride, and things like that, because I depends on what you wear to pride. Let me rephrase that True, if you wear a school appropriate stuff to pride, you can put photos from pride on there.

Bryan: 46:27

And maybe not have a drink in your hand.

Chris: 46:30

Yes. So like obviously, keeping things still professional, that's your job as a teacher. Is this level of professionality? But like I don't hide from it at all. I have a sign outside my door that says all are welcome and the L is rainbow and I got known as the by English teacher. Don't know how that happened. I never talked about being by, so I don't know where that came from. And I put like little subtle things in my classroom. One of my favorite things I have in my classroom is a poster I made that is like it's the by colors in the background and then each of the letters is in a different pride, like flag. So it says like, in case no one told you today hello, good morning, except all the other stuff, each of the like hellos is like the ace colors and then the good morning is like the non binary color, and it's just a little little things. You can be authentic.

Bryan: 47:31

I love that. My daughter was so excited because I moved to a school whose colors were like purple and gold and I had a non binary watch band and she was like, oh my God, dad, your watch matches your school because it's purple and yellow. And I was like, yep, there's so many, so many options out there that, like you can subtly sneak those in, and it's not all about that rainbow anymore.

Chris: 48:06

Yeah, and that's. I think people don't know enough about the community, you know. Are they going to tap all colors now all, or like random patterns of colors in order to stop weird people from existing? No, they're not. They're just going to be upset about a rainbow right now and you can just still like identify, represent, present yourself however you want to, without having to like invoke that ire. Obviously, this depends on where you're at. If you're at a school that is very like anti queer, maybe, maybe that's not the best choice for your first class, maybe.

Bryan: 48:52

And I think that those are things like ask. Don't be afraid to ask those questions in the interview process. I did a phone screener just this morning in fact where one of the questions was like why did you leave this school if you built such a strong program? And I was like, well, here's why, and it has to do with homophobia, and like I need to separate myself from that so that my children didn't have to deal with homophobia. And I'm just like up front with it. Because honestly and you'll get this as a person who can interpolate what's happening with other people, you will understand if someone's reading you and going queer and I'm not into it. You know I had an interview a year ago with a school and it was via Zoom and the superintendent I could just tell off the bat like he didn't like me. He was super conservative. That was the thing against me. It didn't matter what I said in the interview, but make sure that like no amount of money if you can and I understand this comes from a place of privilege, so if you are in a place where you can look for another opportunity, no amount of money is going to be worth living or working in a place that is bigoted and against you.

Chris: 50:08

Then that tells you you have to hide.

Bryan: 50:10

Thank you. Yes, that tells you, you have to hide.

Chris: 50:12

I go into my interviews, I bind my interviews. I like to present probably even more like masculine than I do. Like, naturally, I wear like a suit kind of to my interviews, like tie and everything, because I don't want it to be a surprise. I don't want it to be like, oh, you're queer, I didn't know that. Because, like, I just feel like it's easier being upfront with that and then it's easier for you to then be authentic and we owe it to our kids. We owe it to our kids to see older trans people. There is a-. That's not the only one I watched and it was essentially this kid just being like crying because she didn't see. She had like never seen a trans person with like gray hair or something along the lines of that, and it's true is like if we are not authentic and living out and being the queer adults in these kids' lives, then they might never see a queer adult and grow up thinking that they're wrong.

Bryan: 51:21

It's so interesting because I've been listening to a lot of folks on the more conservative side say things like where are all the older gay people? This is such a new phenomenon and I'm just sitting there going like your predecessors literally killed off a generation of like gay men. So like this is such a real thing because the reality is like trans people, two-spirit, non-binary, gay, lesbian all of us have been here since the dawn of society. We've just been in different forms and called different things based off of where we were culturally, and so it's so funny to me when I hear people are like this is such a new phenomenon. I'm like, excuse me, like they're documented things, documented stories from like ancient Greece and like ancient Egypt, where people that would be identified as the two-spirit, lgbtq plus community were there.

Chris: 52:34

Yeah, I teach mythology as one of my classes and we get to like look at these different like gods or goddesses who like gender swap, and it's like what do you mean? It's new. It's not new. Believe systems have believed and like talked about queer people forever. Even the Bible has a different Greek, or there's like four different male Greeks that are used and I'm just like it's not new and it never has been. It's just simply that we haven't had the chance to like live and like exist. It's the same exact argument that was against like black people in slavery. It's like black people are stupid and it's like no, they are not. You just have not given them like the chance to exist in the same way that like white people have. And now we see that now and we would look at anyone saying that and being like that's racist. You can't say that because society has changed.

Bryan: 53:43

Absolutely. Before we wrap things up, I wanted to go ahead and give you an opportunity to ask me any question or questions that you might have.

Chris: 53:56

I guess my question is like what do you do, like as a queer teacher, to like make your classroom just a little bit safer?

Bryan: 54:09

So, like you, I'm very forward with who I am right. So when I do my introduction I have my pronouns there. I have pictures of my family, which is perceived as a heterosexual relationship right, because I have a husband and I am perceived as male, even though I'm not binary. And I have a progressive pride flag in my classroom. I've had little like trans flags, like I get the little six inch ones and I just kind of get all the flags and just have them around. But other things I do is I do ask for pronouns they're always the optional question and I create space for students to present themselves the way that they want to be seen. And so part of that is like I had a student transition mid-year and we went outside and talked for a second and he decided that he wanted to be like reintroduced to the class, like he was a new student, and so I said this is new student, this is their name, and here are his pronouns, and so he got that like moment of affirmation to start everything out. And then I go above and beyond, especially when it comes to the structural side and the bureaucratic side of education, in the sense that, because I am so out, I will go through testing rosters and make sure that if we know that a child goes by a different name or different pronouns, that we put those on the testing roster instead of using dead names, because all of our systems in schools are based off of what's on a birth certificate and that can be really hard. I've literally used dead names before, after never using them with somebody, because I was just absentmindedly reading my roster one day and I said a name and I was like I'm so sorry, like I have never even been introduced to you as that person and it just came out of my mouth because I saw it. And so I'm a stickler about like we need to change the rosters when it comes to especially standardized testing, like we can manually write in whatever we want on the roster because that's the right thing to do for the kids. And I've had situations where a student was like freaking out, panic attack, checked in and I was like, well, that's not right, let's just write the right name in there and I'm gonna walk with you. We're gonna make sure it's right on the roster up there, because he was literally like I came here from another school and I just wanted to come here as a boy. I just wanna be a boy and I don't want people to know that I never was Like. There was a time when I was perceived as not, and so I'm pretty big about like making sure that the greater space is respectful of all identities, working with the secretaries on campus or the administrators, just to be cognizant of the environments that we're creating, because, when it all comes down to it, we are there to help these children become good adults.

Chris: 57:34

Yeah.

Bryan: 57:35

Like that's it, and so if that means making sure that we say the appropriate name and pronouns for that child and that they live a happy life, like I'm all about happiness, we need more happiness in our life. Things shouldn't be so stressful and angry all the time, like if we can do something that's gonna put a smile on someone's face and make them feel welcome, then we absolutely should take that step because it's not hard.

Chris: 58:00

Yeah, and we as teachers we have that role Like so many kids don't necessarily have, like positive adults in their life, and like it's just the smallest little thing that we can do as someone who sees them more than their parents a lot of the time.

Bryan: 58:17

Absolutely. Hey, chris, it has been so great talking with you today. I just wanna thank you so much for being on the podcast with me. Like we really dove into some things that I didn't expect to talk about, and I just think it's wonderful.

Chris: 58:31

Thank you for having me I. This has been great. I think what you're doing is great.

Bryan: 58:35

Oh, thank you, and thank you all for listening or watching online. I really appreciate you. I hope you all have a great day. Bye. Thank you for joining us on this episode of teaching while queer, and that would help out tremendously. You can also support the podcast by going to wwwteachingwhilequeercom and hit support the show. Thanks so much and have a great day.