Welcome to Teaching While Queer!
Nov. 10, 2022

Teaching While Queer: Navigating Identity and Authenticity with Susanna Crowell

Teaching While Queer: Navigating Identity and Authenticity with Susanna Crowell

In this episode host, Bryan Stanton (he/they) speaks with Texas and New York City teaching artist, Susannah Crowell (they/she) about teaching through story, radical acceptance, and the journey that is discovering one's self. 

Ever wondered how language has the power to shape identity? Find out as we uncover this fascinating concept with our guest, the musical theater performer and educator, Susannah Crowell. A Southern belle turned teacher, Susannah takes us through their inspiring journey of self-discovery and authenticity, navigating the complex waters of gender identity. Her story highlights the importance of non-binary experiences and language in exploring one's true self - a conversation often missing in the narratives we grew up with.

Expanding upon this, we explore the recently increasing visibility of non-binary stories and the crucial role they play in our comprehension of identity. Imagine a world where kids are given the freedom to explore their identity through the introduction of pronouns, and how it can revolutionize the way they interact with the world. Susanna further emphasizes on the necessity of creating an open and inclusive environment in classrooms, accommodating for special needs, and fostering authentic respect, especially when dealing with sensitive topics like gender identity and sexuality.

We also delve into the tricky path of maintaining authenticity while respecting the expectations put on educators. Navigating this path, Susannah shares their experience of working with kids and parents in various environments, encouraging the exploration of identity through creative activities. Ending on a powerful note, we discuss what it means to be a queer educator, the balance between authenticity and societal expectations, and the importance of self-awareness. So join us as we unpack this enlightening discussion on gender identity, acceptance, and respect.

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You can find host, Bryan Stanton, on Instagram.

Follow us on Instagram at @TeachingWhileQueer

To be a guest or to hear more episodes visit www.teachingwhilequeer.com.

Chapters

00:05 - Teaching While Queer

08:58 - The Importance of Language and Identity

13:52 - Exploring Gender Identity and Radical Acceptance

25:15 - Creating a Safe Environment for Children

29:33 - Exploring Pronouns and Identity

34:55 - Respecting Students and Being Authentic

48:47 - Being Authentic as a Queer Educator

Transcript
Speaker 1:

Teaching While Queer is a podcast for LGBTQIA plus teachers, administrators and anyone who works in academia to share their stories. Hi, my name is Brian Stanton, a queer theater educator in San Antonio, texas. Each week, I bring you stories from around the world centered on the experiences of LGBTQIA folks in academia. Thank you for joining me on this journey and enjoy teaching while queer. Hello everyone and welcome back to Teaching While Queer. My name is Brian Stanton, I am your host and today I have the pleasure of speaking with Susanna Kroll. Welcome, susanna, how are you doing? Oh, you're so good. Alright, let's just jump right in. We had a chance to talk pre-show and it's crazy how, in meeting all these folks virtually, that so many of us have common experiences and ours is a connection through the entertainment industry, even though we've never actually worked together or talked with each other until this moment, which is super fun and super cool. But that's another podcast, so tell me a little bit about yourself. How do you identify within a community? Who is Susanna?

Speaker 2:

Susanna, who actually I may? Susanna has always been a pronunciation that I've just been like that's really cool. I always told myself if I did another big cross-country move, I would change it to Susanna.

Speaker 1:

I love that and I accidentally did that there, but I had an affected voice, so maybe it's an alter ego.

Speaker 2:

Oh, yes. What about Susanna? Yes, no, that's definitely a thing. Yeah, susanna is a performer and educator. I really stick with those two terms when describing what I do for a living, which I tend to. I'm really lucky that a lot of the things that I have gone and pursued are some of my very favorite things to do, so my career and how I identify in general have really tied together closely as an artist, but I am a musical theater performer and an educator in musical theater, performance and all of the little bits and bobs that make that up. I've been developing curriculum and teaching kids preschool through around fifth grade in different after-school programs and my own private lessons for about 10 years now, and it's been an absolute blessing. I found the word blessing. I was like, oh no, I'm about to say it's a blessing, but it really is. I love what I do. I love introducing a lot of these kids to not only the performing arts but how the art that they consume and that they love connects to skills that they can develop and connects to the history of theater as an art form which not a lot of kids get as much exposure to as Netflix and the internet, and showing the connections within the art forms and also all of the lessons that you can learn through art but make it fun. So I love integrating different types of curriculum through the performing arts. I'm lucky I went to a undergrad program that had not only a lot of performing arts opportunities but creative education. I went to University of Texas, austin, and while I wasn't a theater education major, I took a lot of theater education classes and their department is absolutely amazing.

Speaker 1:

I'm a little envious of the folks who go to UT for theater education because I see the quality of the first year teacher that comes out of that program and it's insane.

Speaker 2:

It is, oh my gosh. Everybody I've met there and some of them end up going into most of them go into teaching, but a lot of them are also performing and finding other roles in the performing arts. But the ways in which education can come into play within performing arts in general and what we can explore in that curriculum and what we can teach in person to some of the kids that we go into schools testing out our lesson plans on is really fun and I kind of wish I had gone there for I'd done more theater education classes. But I wish I had taken more classes and everything at UT and I ended up taking three times as many credits as I needed to graduate because I explored too much.

Speaker 1:

But anyway, I ended up with some random minor in LGBTQ studies that had just been created the year I graduated and I was like, oh cool, I guess I was just like I'm going to explore some things and take other classes that I just find interesting. And then I ended up with some sociology minor.

Speaker 2:

Oh, we love ending up with a minor and just being able to throw that on there. I took so many and nothing quite ended up in a minor, so my major ended up very vague. It was a Bachelor of Arts in theater and dance, concentration in we don't know a lot of things, something. But yeah, if it had to be anything, it would either be dance or musical theater or possibly TYA or theater education. But how I identify in the community?

Speaker 1:

I am a non binary pansexual person and for these terms existing because, honestly, I was a child, they didn't exist, and so I didn't come to this determination until like relatively recently, right.

Speaker 2:

Because I have, I know I've identified as non binary for less than a year and a half, just a little over a year now, and I look back at everything and all of the pieces. I'm lucky enough that I I keep saying, oh, I'm so lucky, I'm so blessed. But I am talking about some of my very favorite things on this podcast. But yes, yes as I completely forgot what I was saying.

Speaker 1:

You have been identifying as non binary for about a year or so. Is what where you?

Speaker 2:

were at, yes, about a year or so. And I look back and all of the pieces fit together but I haven't seen a lot of non binary stories and I felt like I didn't have permission to be something other than the them Southern Bell that I was taught to be, that I was really good at being. I also taught young children, so I didn't really explore a lot of things outside of the squeaky clean Disney sort of image. And when I saw people who were not absolutely androgynous in the middle or absolutely going from a very femme person to a very mass person or vice versa, when I saw how, in between, a lot of non binary people can be like you can be born and raised male and identify as someone femme, but not a girl, not a woman I saw that and said, yeah, yeah, I've been trying to do that. But, yes, I love labels. Not everybody loves them and not everybody needs them Like they are not necessary, but I happen to love them because I love having the language, for this language affects what our brains think is possible. I heard the other day there was a group of deaf children who were taught all of these signs in school, but not for right and left or in front of. The certain directions that they were given did not include a couple of relations like in front of or near or something. I'm completely mangling the story but they were given some types of signs for things in relation to themselves but not others, and when a teacher would put something fairly easy to find in front of them, they could not find it because they did not have the language for wherever it was in relation to them. Language is important for how we see who we are and what is going on around us.

Speaker 1:

That is so real, and I think back to my story, which is on the trailer for this podcast, and how, when I was young, there was no success for gay people, there was no living as a gay person or within the queer community period, and so it is a froggy morning and so, as I was a young queer person, I really couldn't see my life past high school because there wasn't anything else for someone like me, and it wasn't until, like honestly, until I started getting out into the world and meeting other people, that I realized that there's more to life than what you see on television, because even like my queer role models towards the end of my time in high school were like from Will and Grace and queer as folk, or like Oz, which is a show about prison, and so really it's just about convenience sex as opposed to like queer life, and it was just everything centered around either being excessively flamboyant or drug sex, alcohol, and so it was like there wasn't a future that seemed to fit for me, because that was none of those things, and it's like, once these realities started to become present and visible and more language started to be developed, that it allowed me to go on a journey again, because I always knew I was different and I didn't even know what the word gay meant before I was labeled as it, and then I owned this word for so long. And then I get to go on another journey in my thirties being like, oh, there's a whole other vocabulary for me to explore and how that fits, and it's wild to be able to come into yourself, you know, as an adult.

Speaker 2:

Yes, and to go on this journey that so many people go on so much younger in life, and to get to go on it now and yeah, it's like starting over in a lot of ways you're going. I am a small baby. What is happening?

Speaker 1:

Learning to walk right.

Speaker 2:

Yes, yes, and we're not alone as people who identify as non-binary too. I know I and so many other people that I meet also most recently found out because stories of nuanced non-binary experiences have, at least in the last few years. I found mine through social media. People that I followed who identified as queer, starting to talk about their identifications a little more and just happening to always be in these theater spaces where I was. You know friends on Facebook or mutual acquaintances with a lot of people who were brave enough to speak on their experiences that I hadn't heard about before. There was Hannah Fonder, who was a counselor for me at this one random theater camp when I was 14. We kept in touch through Facebook and they have been speaking on their experiences as a hyperfam non-binary person and I heard their stories and they've been writing a lot about it recently too, writing a lot of articles going in depth on their identification, and I messaged them and said, hey, what's this? What is this and why Tell me? Because maybe me too. I barely knew what was going on, but I was like, yeah, wait, huh, as a person who was just kind of set on. Okay, I'm a female who loves drag race and is the spokesperson for queer for most of the people that I know who is pansexual of some sort, and I guess that's it. I was still a little confused but I said, okay, that's it. But yeah, getting to explore gender in a way that I thought was never available to me for whatever reason, I didn't think it was available to me and now I do, it's wonderful. And, speaking on teaching, there are so many resources for some of the youngest students that I have. I see the children's books available and the media available to them and it's like Harry burns the house down boots at his first drag show, a book for preschoolers and I'm like okay, fun, we're exposing all these different walks of life and ways to be to young children and redefining their relationship with gender really early.

Speaker 1:

It's a great book series that a friend of mine sent to me on TikTok because an elementary educator was reading through all of these books about gender, and one of them is it's a series of books that are my Shadow Is and so my Shadow Is Purple, and it talks about being non-binary. And my Shadow Is Pink, and it talks about being somebody who was born and identified as a boy, discovering that maybe they're more like girls than they anticipated, maybe they are in fact a girl, and the use of the shadow color is like a cute way of identifying your characteristics. These things are all here behind you, they're kind of here with you at all times and they're just a little bit different. And it was so empowering it's like a five minute or less read and it is so great because it provides a vocabulary specifically meant for pre-K to second grade. All those things coming out and existing in the world right now is just insane, because there's so much freedom to allow children to be themselves.

Speaker 2:

And explore who they are, because we don't know. And there's this stigma, at least that I felt and seen from very liberal but cautious families who one don't want what's happening to the LGBTQ community to happen to their child. They don't want their child bullied, they don't want their child to have less rights than the other children, but they also want their child to express themselves. But a lot of kids don't know yet, and so you need the freedom to explore without those labels yet, because a lot of kids don't want to label themselves, they're not sure who they are, they're not sure how they identify, they're not sure how they feel with what they think is masculine or feminine. And until I like that shadow metaphor, it's like this is around and this is not me deciding who I am and sticking to it. You don't have to stick to it. Let's just explore what feels best for ourselves and that might be different tomorrow. And that's one of the reasons why I love teaching kids through performing arts, because they get to try on different identities, they get to explore these different characters. The conversations come up naturally and kids really get to explore who they may enjoy expressing themselves as, without making it about them. Cut and dry discipline. It's like I get to try on this character for a bit. Yeah, and kids shouldn't have to make decisions on who they are. There's a lot of the queer community. When you've decided a label, there's at least to other people when you tell them that label there's this, okay, and this is who I am now.

Speaker 1:

There's such a misconception like ever changing misunderstanding of what using the vocabulary actually means. I've seen students who have identified with one set of pronouns and then announced everybody that they identify with a different set of pronouns and then again announced that they identify with a different set of pronouns because they just discovered more about themselves. So maybe the sequence was identifies, he, identifies, she, identifies, they, and and that was an exploration that they needed to go on. I mean, even looking like recent hot topics, right, there have been articles circulating the last two days about Demi Lovato is going back to she, her pronouns and it's like you have to have that ability and everybody needs to have that understanding that it's a journey, not a destination, and so I think it's one super cool that these articles are circulating and that the word is getting out and that people are becoming more aware of the fact that things are spectrum and things aren't aren't black and white, and the more that we get that kind of mindset in place, the easier it's going to be for young people. And then, hopefully, parents get hit with that, because I I have experienced, even recently, like a teacher parent, being like uh, last year my daughter was a lesbian and now they want me to call, call them christen and go by different pronouns and I'm just like I can't just keep changing my mind with you and I'm like, oh, which can like it's, it's just a matter of just supporting this and I know, if we saw this in the same ways that we see every other type of um of self exploration.

Speaker 2:

Kids have phases. Uh, we've seen phases for years. Kids go on radical fashion journeys. Um, they have their different uh interests, um, you see, oh, especially with preschoolers, one week it could be bugs and then the next week, no way bugs are out. I am all about transformers. And then after that it's like nope, nope. I watched Sophia the first. It changed my life. My life is Sophia the first. You know it. Kids, um, kids should have the ability to explore and I think we just need to give more patience about labeling the people that we know less because we are more complex than I think we give other people the credit for, um, and letting people be as complex as they are. It's not a attack on you not knowing the fullness of that person. In that very moment, people are going to change. We need to let them. In. My classes, I and I just like to lead with radical acceptance and just a smile and an okey dokey and uh, there's, there's so much resistance to people changing because it makes us feel like, oh well, I don't know this person as well anymore if it's whether it be your kid or your friend. Um, these labels are going to change, these interests are going to change and the resistance we feel around it I feel like is rooted in. But but I thought I knew this person and I feel betrayed that this is changing and I feel angry that I have to change my view of this person because I have set in stone who this person is in my mind and and the concept of well, they've been lying to me, they've been deceitful and I'm just like sometimes, yeah, exactly, it's like no, um, people are just more complex than I think. Uh, we have of socially, talked about people being at least in um modern, modern American culture. Uh, yep, the homogenization of whatever American means anymore. But um, yes, at least in my experience, people are more nuanced than um. In general, the way I've taught that I have been taught socially people have credit for absolutely sorry.

Speaker 1:

I hope there's one thing in there that I really want to draw out, because I think it's really fantastic, is the idea of radical acceptance. Um, I was talking with another teacher recently who was like, and I had this student who, um, who is gay, and wanted to go around just believing that everybody was gay until they told him that he was straight, like, changed the narrative right and and the teacher was like, oh honey, that's just gonna lead to a lot of heartbreak. But for me, I just kind of go around accepting people as people until they inform me of their nuances. Like I'm not gonna walk into a room and be like, oh, that one's straight and that one's gay and that one's this, this, and that I'm not gonna apply those labels myself because it's none of my business, and so it would be so wonderful for the world to get into this place of like radical acceptance. You tell me, you tell me who are you?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, it's back to that. It's not when you said oh honey, it's not about you, it's really. It's really not about you. That's that's kind of the thing here. As people trying to make sense of the world and the people around us, I think we we try to make a lot of assumptions to make ourselves feel safer, to make ourselves feel more in control, like, okay, well, I've, I've made my assumptions about these people and I know how to deal with them, because I've decided that this person is X, this person is Y, this problem, this kid is going to have problems at snack time, this kid is going to do this, this and this. But I like to go into each day and each situation and it definitely takes practice with a clean slate of hi person. I'm going to give you as much respect as all the other people around me and it's about you. You tell me how you're doing today. You show me what you would like to do right now. You show me what you are interested in. If you know the need arises, let's all do this activity together and I'm going to assume that, that we're just going to do the this activity until you inform me that we can't. Or you're having a problem or you have a fun idea for this activity. And not not to say that I won't accommodate where accommodations need to be made, but until a student tells me, or sometimes until a parent tells me, that something needs to be switched or certain situations need to be dealt with in a certain way. I had a child at one of my five day camps recently who had had severe anxiety around time. So I was told pretty early on, at least from this kid I need to know what time it is. I'm going to ask you what time it is, and and. So she would ask me what time it was and I would just look at my clock and I would add that in along with whatever we were doing, and then you know, as long as she knew what time it was, we were fine and we had a clock up on the wall, but she wanted to know it from my watch and and any who things pop up. And I think kids, kids really share more of who they are when I, when I give this impression of Hi, everybody, this is out, when I give the energy of this is about you and I'm not going to assume anything of you, I am not going to ask more than is needed of you. I am just going to happily go along with whoever you are, and I don't know if any of this makes sense, but that's that's kind of what I try to give to all of my camps and prepare myself as an educator in each situation so that I can really focus on the, the knowledge and enjoyment of the kids in the class, rather than have to I don't know focus on me or sometimes when we're tired or not at our best. I know most educators are very tired and overstressed right now, no matter what position we are in, but doing my best to take care of myself so that I can show up best for those kids and keep my energy focused on. Okay, I've got this lesson plan and I'm going to send over a smile and a thumbs up to however these kids react and if, if someone is having a bad day, react with empathy, and then I'm so sorry. That sounds frustrating. You do what you need to do, I'll. I'll teach you this later, or you can frown while we do this exercise, if you need, just hold space. I think that's the best way to put it. I try to hold space for all of these kids so they really are able to express themselves however they want. I also, in my camps, have started with pronouns at the beginning of camp and, depending on where the kid is coming from, they're either very used to pronouns or they've already asked me what my pronouns are, or they go. What are pronouns? What is this? Wait, he's what? What are my pronouns? Some kids just don't get it right away and it's it's pretty simple to explain. I have found pronouns. They aren't hard Wow, who knew? And we all have them. Yes, we go by something. And then I usually establish for the kids. There are usually kids who are very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very excited. Maybe they already identify as queer A lot of middle schoolers who are like yes, we're talking pronouns. Well, everybody, I'm gay and and there are some kids in there who are saying wait, I don't know, I don't know what are mine? I, which ones do I choose? Is there a correct answer? And I go no, no, there isn't. And it's that, I know that. And I go no, no, there isn't. When I'm talking about you, do I say she's holding the ball, he's holding the ball, they're holding the ball. There are other pronouns, but those are the main three that I like to introduce at first.

Speaker 1:

And those that are in the Common Vinacular, the ones that everybody uses right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and there was this six-year-old in my camp this past week who we were going around and they were all kids who were signed up for camp with female next to their name and all of the teachers were AFAB. And the kids, like noticed and said hey, we're all girls here. And I said let's talk pronouns, because not quite. And I said I'm a non-binary female. You can call me she and you can say they. And if you have any other questions, you can ask me she, they, moving on, what are yours? And everybody said she, her. And we got to the end where this kid the kid who had said we're all girls, said well, just because I want to be called a boy doesn't mean I want to use he, I'll go with they. So this kid, who had just found out about pronouns, went by they that week and got to try that out. And who knows if they ever would have if we hadn't had that conversation at the beginning of camp, and even if it's a five-day camp, that kid might have been able to explore a little bit about who they are and how people interact with them in the world. That's a beautiful and that was fun, so even if that kid never thinks about it again, she got to try on some different pronouns, just like she tried on different costumes in our Beauty and the Beast camp. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1:

That's awesome and it's so easy. It's a quick thing to do and the way you explain it that's like do I say she's holding the ball, he's holding the ball, they are holding the ball. It's so simple. That drives me crazy when parents and people just don't get it. My favorite meme circulating the internet at the moment is there are no pronouns in the Constitution, but it literally starts with we, the people.

Speaker 2:

And we is a pronoun folks.

Speaker 1:

Remember we said there were more pronouns than he, she, they, we is a pronoun that represents multiple people, I know. So it's just funny how there's such a huge misconception about it. It's a queer thing, but it's not. It's just a person thing and it's just another way to help people understand who you are and make sure that they're talking to you in a way that you're comfortable with. And I think that is so wild, because there's been this push and education, at least in my perspective in Texas for the last year or so, where it's like the uncomfortability of cisgender people is a priority over the safety, the feeling of safety for queer people. And that uncomfortability comes from teachers literally be requiring, are required by the state of Texas to take an inclusive practices class, like there is an online class that public school educators have to take, provided by the state, about socializing norms with pronouns and creating spaces for LGBTQ students to be able to thrive, because they haven't been, and it's wild to me that there's a lot of pushback on it, because it's really just a matter of updating our language to make sure everyone feels safe, and this idea that I'm uncomfortable, so I'm not safe is not real.

Speaker 2:

Yes, respecting someone's personhood can be. It's the first step and it is important to the point where that kid could learn everything that you are trying to teach them, or nothing, because they either have shut down their idea of respect for you because you are not respecting them in turn, or they do not feel safe, or they are sometimes, depending on the person, backlash like well, I'm just not going to listen to this person because they're not even. They're not even calling me the right name, the right pronouns, what have you? So why should I listen to them if they're not giving me the respective who, I, some very basic Identifying factors of myself that are very easy to get right and they are purposefully not. Well, I don't really have respect for this person. I don't really like this person. I'm not gonna listen to whatever History lesson they're trying to give, and that can be the difference between and a in the class and a fail. It's. It's a really simple it and it's yeah, it can. Really. It has the ability to Define all the rest of the success that your students will have in that class and the success that you will have as a teacher Absolutely.

Speaker 1:

Um, so let's talk that. We've talked kind of about how you handle your, your teaching space. So being your teaching artist, correct, you go into schools, you provide a service of that is, teaching the arts to young people, specifically theater, musical theater. So do you have a lot of experience working with with parents and administration, and what has your experience been like working with them?

Speaker 2:

I Am usually Not working directly with administration on my lesson plans. I I work with a lot of outside of school organizations who give me the freedom to lead the class. However, I would like and we usually have administration come in for one or two classes to see how things are going, but it's really hands-off. I've, partly because I have been working on this for long enough and have enough testimonial that People trust that what's that the class is a okay, ready to go aligns with their values. And I get to work for a variety of organizations a lot of performing arts schools and and dance classes and occasionally preschools in New York and Austin and I work a lot with Parents head on, especially at our children's camps. Parents come in, they sign their kid in. They're usually five-day camps so the entire week is sort of learning the rules, learning when the camp performance is, when pick up is what the kid will be doing that day, because it's different each day. So I do have a lot of direct conversations with parents, specifically at my summer classes, and Honestly, I have been lucky. I've been in two very liberal cities, in in fairly liberal environments that are, and in the performing arts, you know, you never know, but there are a lot of safe spaces within the performing arts and mostly families have been very accepting of of kids Dressing up, making masks. We we create a lot of costume crafts so kids may create a costume that is not the maybe the child is Female and created not so feminine a costume or a male identifying child Tries on a dress and loves it. You know we've got we've got a lot of costume play where kids may dress up in a way that their parents have not seen them dress up before, including as small mammals, small mammals, robots, swapping gen, gender, traditional clothing items which we like to break down like what is a gender traditional clothing item. But In general I haven't seen a lot of pushback From parents because in a performing arts camp it's kind of expected that kids will explore identity and or Explore Identities, maybe not necessarily their own, but they're going to be dressing up as different characters, they're going to be telling stories and it's I'm glad I've had a few Parents make offhand comments that I don't think they notice that they're making at pickup, like oh there, there have been a couple of, there have been a couple of Male identifying students that parents will make a comment about Glittery, pink, something or other, or a traditionally female Clothing item or coloring sheet or what have you about? Oh, but that's for girls, or oh, we're, we're having a lot of fun here? Aren't we laughing a little too hard at Whatever is going on or saying that's really not you? Or Just little little comments like that, like, oh, we're, we're really having fun today, oh, that's wild, that's, that's bonkers. You know, you know, and I I Don't remember the exact situation, but I remember the intonation of one father once Saying, oh, come on, some sort of oh, come on, not that, not for you. I don't remember the situation, but in my ten years I remember the inflection of one father to a son going oh no. But I have not had a lot of pushback specifically to me. I have also only been, you know, even possibly visibly queer for about a month with a shorter haircut. That, yeah, I, just I, I don't know. I'm not super out immediately to parents because we're, it's not gay camp, I'm, I'm not coming in saying hi. Here's how I identify. I'm usually saying hi. This is what I'm teaching your kids this week and the nature of my work. I'm not working full-time with the kids In Schools. After school classes. A lot of parents don't Ask as many questions as they would for their child's. You know nine to five school day, which has allowed me a lot of freedom for what I can work with in curriculum. But yeah, I Really just Try to Keep an open environment for the kids and I have full transparency with parents about what their kids are learning and I Usually don't have direct conversations with parents about LGBTQ Matters. I rarely do with students. We just kind of go over pronouns the first day and, and you know if, if kids have come home with pronoun situations to parents, the only Response I have gotten from parents before is one mom coming in and saying hey, my son is six. He didn't understand the pronouns. Y'all went over yesterday and then he did. And I'm really glad you're talking about them because in a lot of ways and a lot of spaces here in Texas as a, as a very shy little boy who is usually doing a Non-performing arts related camps, he's not much of a Performing artist or an artistic sort of kid. He may not find out about a lot of, a Lot of different Identifications and especially in our neighborhood like I'm not sure if he would have a pronoun conversation and a lot of spaces that I am bringing my son to and it has made me think about the spaces that I'm bringing my son to and also just glad he knows about Pronouns. So thanks for talking about them and I was like, thanks, woke mom, because she was yeah, it was, it was a. It was very much a tight suburban Texas neighborhood sort of a I mean I'll name drop for anyone who here's West. You know, at a certain I think Cedar Park has sort of become one of those. You know there are bubbles everywhere. Everybody who's ever heard of a suburb knows there are little neighborhood bubbles where you know there's there's maybe a keeping up with the Joneses sort of thing going on and and this, this mom with her son Seemed to be a part of that and kind of had at least a little bit of an awakening when we talked pronouns and Heard about them from son who had come home and said and my pronouns are he, him, or? We talked about pronouns and it confused me and then I found out this he had just turned six. So it was a very young child in this camp, probably the youngest in our camp, who I guess had talked to mom about it and mom said Thanks for talking about that because I don't think he would have ever found out from any of his other little football camps that pronouns were a thing. So thanks and yeah, that's, that's one situation I have had, but otherwise I, I, otherwise I. I just generally try to be myself and allow children to be themselves, and I have. I. I've worked in spaces where I haven't really been I Forced into a box or forced into a closet or had any parent pushback. But I know a lot of educators have and I would like to keep doing work to make spaces not only more accepting for educators but that will in turn make all of the educational spaces, uh, more accepting for everybody.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, absolutely, and that was such a great segue into my last question for you. This is the one I spring on everybody. But it really comes down to authenticity. So if you have a teacher, if you were to give advice to a teacher who was Concerned or grappling with the idea of being their authentic self in their classroom environment, what kind of advice would you give them about just owning who they are? I suppose?

Speaker 2:

Hmm, that would really have to do with that person's personality and the space in which they are teaching, because, honestly, things can get dangerous. I have heard horror stories about teachers in not so accepting school districts with not so accepting administration. The movie Hurricane Bianca is coming to mind.

Speaker 1:

It's a great film If you've seen Hurricane Bianca. Hurricane Bianca II huge, huge.

Speaker 2:

Yes, absolutely, hurricane Bianca II's premiere at Alamo Draft House. But, yes, anyone listening to the Teaching While Queer podcast would probably like the Hurricane Bianca movies. Anyway, I would say, next time you have an impulse to, it might be saying something in your authentic voice, it might be teaching something in the way that your brain thinks about the subject. Anytime you have an impulse and a part of yourself says, no, I have to switch into my teacher mode, or I have to switch into my Because teacher, a type of teacher mode, always needs to be on. But I know a lot of people who and LGBTQ people who have a teacher mode. That is very much a code switch from who they typically are. And I would say, next time you have that impulse, just first start to notice those impulses where you are not acting like your authentic self, like what does my authentic self mean? Find those situations in the classroom, just as you go about your day. First identify where you don't feel like you're being your authentic self and then maybe write out. I love journaling as a way to solve problems, but first identify where you don't feel like you're being your authentic self. Maybe you answered a question and you thought about the question like you thought about your answer like five times before actually saying it out loud. And you said it out loud and you thought that didn't I'm being someone who I'm not right now, or I'm making a decision that who I, what a teacher should be, is giving this answer, not so much what my impulse as a person who is educating students this is also vague, but anyway, journaling out when you don't feel like you're your authentic self and ways in which you are your authentic self in real life, and then finding a nice middle ground that is classroom appropriate and appropriate to the situation. And because a lot of the time when I think of my authentic self, I mean naturally I swear like a sailor. Obviously I don't. There's this boundary we have as educators already, but it's a fine line to being our authentic selves and being the best educator for these students and being the best conduit of information for these people. So finding where that boundary is for you through noticing your own behavior and finding case studies like specific situations that you find as you go about your day, I feel like might be the best way to be your authentic self in the classroom Because it gives an actionable, it's actionable advice, like I've heard.

Speaker 1:

You know, I'm not out, I'm just myself, I don't come out, I just am myself. And I was like that's it's very, it's very relevant and it's very wonderful. And if people can take that advice and move with it, then that's fantastic. But this is great because it's an actionable thing. That's like just notice when you don't feel like you're being yourself and then maybe start just asking the question why and how, like, why, why and these specific situations do I not feel like myself? And then how could I be more myself? Because I always say that I even tell my students I was like I'm here to teach you to be a professional liar, I'm here to teach you to be an actor right, but the greatest actors in the world are your teachers, because we will literally go home and have an entirely different life and you will have no idea, because that is the boundary that is set. You get to have a glimpse, a window into who we are as a person, but you don't get the whole thing. And yeah, that's so important for boundaries, but also for you know ourselves, to keep ourselves safe and and and to make sure that we're able to be up and in front of a group of people every single day, because being your authentic self up in front of a group of people 100% of the time and 100% authenticity is just thinking about it is giving me anxiety, because it's like, oh, that opens you up to a world of, like vulnerability and fear and all these things Because there are innate boundaries and being an educator, I just hope that people can get more in the lines of queer educators feeling the same boundaries as cisgender, heterosexual educators and, yeah, because the same yeah, cisgender, heterosexual educators don't have to come out, they don't have to think about this as much, because their, their authentic selves are the norm and it's and and there are the.

Speaker 2:

They're the same boundaries set, with themselves being their full, authentic selves outside of the classroom versus in the classroom. They're not going to talk about their entire lives and especially when it comes to our sexual orientations, that doesn't really come up in the setting of a classroom and it's. It's interesting because it is cultural and it is a part of oneself that is important for students to be able to know Generally, that there there are people, of all people, identifications, around them, but we're also not talking about our sex lives at all, 100%. And so how does one be? What exactly? And sometimes the ways that I have found are, every once in a while, I will, at least in my mind, I will phrase something like Tim guns, make it work. Yep, I, you know, have found that situation to come into play in some situations in camp, and a lot of the time I'll say, in the great words of Tim gun, make it work. And I thought about that one day and I thought, can I say that? Because that is a, that I was like that's, that's a queer thing to say, can I say that? And then I was like well, is it? And also, yes, I think that fully works. Right now, a quoting project runway with make it work when trying to put our costumes together fully. I can quote that like why can't? I and it asks who Tim Gunn is. I say one of the judges on project runway or what's project? One first, and a lot yes, exactly A lot of. It has to do with if a pop culture reference seamlessly comes up in our class on theater, where pop culture abounds, knowing that anything age appropriate, whether it be there's, there's age appropriate queer culture that will just seamlessly come up in reference and to not be afraid to reference it, because a lot of the time I'll think to myself like oh, can I, because I have not seen, I haven't seen a fab educators bringing up, bringing up queer culture in a classroom, like that's just something that I hadn't seen. And I kept thinking, oh well, I can't because the students will see that I don't know. It's figuring out oneself and how to be authentic to yourself is a part of the conversation, like what finding out what authenticity means to you is a part of showing up authentically in the classroom. But kids will. Kids will notice when you're being something you're thought.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and then they're going to be like well, what is this person? What? What else is this person lying to me about? Because they seem a little sus, they seem a little fishy. What's going on? I feel like they're faking something. Are Are one? Are they telling me the truth about whatever they're teaching me about? Are they? Are they? Is what they're teaching me important? Because they seem to be distracted or something's off or there's. There's a level of trust when you're on your authentic self and students will really take that to heart and and the classroom will really feel like a place where they are learning the truth, they are seeing the truth and they can learn Absolutely, I don't know, hopefully.

Speaker 1:

Well, thank you so much for agreeing to be on the podcast, for joining me for this hour. We've been talking, which is fantastic. It's been really wonderful learning about your journey and just how you incorporate, how you incorporate things into your classroom in just such a fluid way. I really love the idea of showing up and just accepting everybody radical acceptance. So thank you so much for sharing this gift with me and to everybody who's listening.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, Brian, for having me.

Speaker 1:

We'll have a great day and everyone listening. You have a great day too. Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of Teaching Wild Queer. If you haven't done so already, please consider subscribing on your favorite RSS feed and sharing the podcast with your friends and family. New episodes will come out every other week during the school year. If you're interested in joining us on the Teaching Wild Queer podcast, please email us at teachingwellqueerpodcast at gmailcom. Have a great day.

Susannah CrowellProfile Photo

Susannah Crowell

Musical Theatre Performer / Teaching Artist

Susannah Crowell (they/she) is a musical theatre artist & comedian dual-based in New York City and her hometown of Austin, Texas. They also teach and create curriculum at performing arts schools around the country. Credit highlights include Crowley in Amazon Prime’s Good Omens live events, Handmaid in Hulu’s A Handmaid’s Tale live events, Jenny in the world premiere of Human Resources the Musical, Lily St. Regis in Annie (TexArts), Swing in Jungalbook (ZACH), The Who’s Tommy (City Theatre), and the Under the Shroud podcast. They are currently performing in Hedwig and the Angry Inch with The Stage Austin at the Dougherty Arts Center Aug. 11-27.