Lessons Beyond the Classroom: The Life of a Gay Teacher in France

Speaker 1: 0:05

Teaching While Queer is a podcast for LGBTQIA plus teachers, administrators and anyone who works in academia to share their stories. Hi, my name is Brian Stanton, a queer theater educator in San Antonio, texas. Each week, I bring you stories from around the world centered on the experiences of LGBTQIA folks in academia. Thank you for joining me on this journey and enjoy teaching while queer. Hello everyone and welcome to Teaching While Queer podcast. My name is Brian Stanton and I am your host today. I have the wonderful joy of going international today and I'll be speaking with Romain, who teaches German but lives in Valence, france.

Speaker 2: 0:50

Hello Welcome.

Speaker 1: 0:52

Thanks so much for taking the time to speak with me today. I'm really excited to get talking with you. So tell me a little bit about yourself, what do you teach? And yeah, let's just start there what do you teach and what do you teach?

Speaker 2: 1:10

So first, thank you for the invitation. I hope you will understand my English. I have studied languages English, German and my father is Italian. So I speak English, Italian too, Wow yeah. So language is kind of my stuff and I work mainly as a translator. That's what I studied translation studies and then at some points I got asked by a school if I could teach German and I say, well, I'm not supposed to be a teacher, but I like languages so I'm happy to share them with some students. And I say, why not? So I started, and now it's been eight years since I started teaching. So I basically teach at the university engineering school and I also teach with adult training.

Speaker 1: 2:10

That's amazing. So can you tell me a little bit about what it was like for you as a young person, a gay student, in the world?

Speaker 2: 2:22

For me it was I wouldn't say easy, because it's never so easy, but I just make this very easy for everyone, that I openly talk about it. So it's like when you meet other students and say, what have you done during the weekend, I was my girlfriend doing this and that I was just like I was with my boyfriend and we did this, and that I have to tell that I am in a very long relationship. It's been now 20 years. So I met my husband when I was 15 and we're still together. So I think, when you find one that can support you so long, it's the right one.

Speaker 1: 3:08

Right, absolutely. I met my husband when we were excuse me, I was 22. And so not quite as long, but definitely found that person. I was like great, I could stop looking now.

Speaker 2: 3:24

Yeah, so for me, I was in a stable relationship and I mean, it was just making this a normal thing. I will not say, yeah, I'm gay, we're wearing rainbow flags and listening to Lady Gaga out loud or anything about. Just okay, that's me. I have personality like this and part of it is being gay and having a boyfriend. And if you are not happy with it, it's not my problem, it's your problem. And I have to say also that at the language school there were not so many boys and we were like three boys out of 50 students, because I live in a small city, in a small area, so it's not like the big town, paris, and it's a very small town. And yeah, we were just three guys and two of them were gay, so it was not really something difficult, I would say.

Speaker 1: 4:24

Awesome. Do you think that being in a small town made it like there's that? What's the best way to wear this? There are those people who do like fly out of the closet with rainbow flags everywhere and are very public. Do you think that growing up in a smaller town or going to university where there wasn't a lot of even just males in the room influence that decision, or do you think that it was just like? You know what? I'm just going to be me and I'm going to be low key because that's my vibe.

Speaker 2: 5:06

Well, I was born here and grew up there, so I didn't have the experience of big cities where you have a gay community or LGBT community. So I was just living my life and also at that time we didn't have so much internet so it was not so easy to really know about the pride and all the flags and stuff. So I was just being myself and if people liked it, it's good. If not, then I had my family that knew already about it and accepted I was living with my boyfriend, so for me the security was there already. I mean, if the other students were not happy, then I can study without them. I just do my own work and for all the other activities that I had, because I was doing some voluntary work, sometimes the topic came and I was just really open about it. But that was for me. They call what. I think very funny is that sometimes people say oh, you like the normal gay, we don't see that, we cannot guess that you're gay. I'm not hiding it, I'm just being myself. What does it mean to look like gay? Is it because I have to wear a flag or I don't know? I'm just wearing my own clothes and I'm just being myself. Sometimes I take it as a compliment, but sometimes it also means that the other are not normal. What do you mean like with that?

Speaker 1: 6:51

Yeah, I feel that I married, I have children, and so I say that for a lot of people I feel like I'm the palatable gay, like it's, I'm easier to digest than somebody else who may be more flamboyant or more feminine than I am, which at some times is like, okay, great, thank you. And then other times I'm kind of like, but there's nothing wrong with flamboyant or feminine and all that stuff. So I feel like that I get that same kind of energy that you're discussing and I kind of get that vibe too, because we follow each other on social media and I was like, oh yeah, we're very similar in that kind of just living your life. And it's not necessarily always rainbow flags and unicorns, though I do have an eight year old, so a lot of my life is rainbow flags and unicorns because she loves them.

Speaker 2: 7:48

But for different reasons.

Speaker 1: 7:50

For different reasons exactly.

Speaker 2: 7:54

But also you have some straight guys that are very flamboyant and feminine, and it doesn't mean that they are gay. So it's two different things your sexual orientation and the way you behave.

Speaker 1: 8:06

I agree with that entirely and the idea of there was a long time that there was this coined phrase the metrosexual, like the well put together straight man who gets their nails done and keeps their eyebrows on point or whatnot, and they're just basically doing self care in a different way than most folks. And so it's so interesting that, like for a long time, it had always been correlated that, like your, your sexual orientation and your, your gender expression, really like your masculine, feminine side of things were tied together and in reality that's just not the truth. So it's kind of cool to be like living in this world right now where people are kind of opening up to that idea that gender has nothing to do with with who you love and how you express yourself.

Speaker 2: 9:00

But still you have sometimes some conversation that are more related to the community and some that are more to the straight atmosphere. I'd say, for example here I know in the US it's less important, but soccer is here very important. And and the last time we had a school exchange the students made fun out of me saying so can you name at least three players of the French national soccer team? I was like, oh my God.

Speaker 1: 9:32

Let me get Google.

Speaker 2: 9:35

What this guy, the one we see well, I know the one we saw on TV on advertisement, but otherwise I don't. I have no idea about the French national soccer team, but for all the teenagers they were like why you don't know the name of this one and this one? I said come on, you don't know the name of the singer of Eurovision either, so don't blame me.

Speaker 1: 9:59

You do your research, I'll do mine. It's fine.

Speaker 2: 10:03

My World Cup it's at Eurovision, that's it.

Speaker 1: 10:07

That's awesome. It's funny because I have the same conversations here about American football and I'm like don't even ask, I'm not going to be able to answer any questions.

Speaker 2: 10:18

Super Bowl is just a big concert for Madonna or Lady, yeah.

Speaker 1: 10:23

I was like, oh right, the Super Bowl right, that's where they're playing a sport around the big concert. That's exactly how I view it. I'm like, oh right, the Spice Girls did it once. That's awesome. So as you were growing up, it seemed like things were relatively calm. You were able to just kind of be yourself in your own space, which I think is super awesome, because I don't think a lot of us who are our age got to experience that in the world. And even for myself, I got that to some extent because I had a lot of time. I was outed, which is horrible, but because of that I had a lot of time to get comfortable with who I was. But how do you think that informs you as an educator? Like, what is it like, either working with LGBTQ students or even those who maybe are like oh, I don't quote unquote agree with LGBT people?

Speaker 2: 11:24

I'm a language teacher, so part of the language work is to speak and to express yourself in the foreign language. So I tried to bring some topics that helps the students to express themselves in a different way, so they can express different words, different way of talking, and part of that. I don't want to do all the year about LGBT topics or about discriminations, and especially for me. They are students at the university, so they are about to go into the real work after, so I have to prepare them to go for a job interview, to write their CV, and so we do a lot of the work about how do you present yourself to go to work in a company and stuff. But also when you go to another country, you have to also know about the culture of this country. It's not just the language, it's also the local culture. And especially in Europe we have all the different countries next to each other. So the German culture is very different from the French culture and also not so long ago we were enemies, so it's very, in the history, very different and that's why we have to also know about that, because the same word can have different meaning in the two countries. But anyway, part of that is also to discuss about the situation in the country. So I have a topic that I address about inclusion and discriminations and it's not all about LGBT community but also about women rights, about rights for disabled people, about racism. So it's like a big topic about discrimination, but I also talk about LGBT. It's not like LGBT is a small part. It is a part like all the other parts of it, and especially in Germany it's very different. The way people have been accepted for the LGBT community, like the gay were sent to concentration camp during World War II and it was the pink triangle, and so we have there is this big story that is very important in the German history that we can share with the students in the German class. But history is also connected because World War II was just 70 years ago. The Berlin Wall fell 30 years ago, so it's not so long ago that the continent was divided and actually it's very new that we are united in the European Union. So what we learn in history school it's like we were fighting each other during centuries in Europe and you have all the places around, like in France, you have a lot of big streets that are named after World War. I like the Verden Street, everything is reminding about the war and the being king, like in my city. Napoleon is a big thing because he studied there. And so you say, yeah, french hero Napoleon. And then you talk to the German and say, are you sure?

Speaker 1: 15:02

Depending on who's perspective you're talking about.

Speaker 2: 15:05

Yeah, so it's like it's all connected and it's not so old also that we had all the war in Europe and even today you have the war in Ukraine, so war is not very far away from us. And so that's where you also think OK, we live in the European Union, but still it's very fragile, it's something that can be really easily destroyed, and all the countries have a national interest, and Because we don't share the same language, we don't share the same culture, so it's not that easy. And when you learn language, I like to think that learning a new language is like creating a bridge with this, a new country, and that's why it's important to know about the culture. And of course, here we are talking about the big picture, but when you look in details, then you can see the the story for the LGBT community that is very different from all the countries. In Germany they were sent to the concentration camp to death and Just after the war they were sent to prison. They just took the Gay, because of course, it was mostly gays, because lesbians were more accepted by the Nazis.

Speaker 1: 16:23

It's wild, right. I feel like that's still a common treat.

Speaker 2: 16:28

Yeah, and, and then, just after the war, they were sent to prison. So for them the nightmare were continuing, and in France we had to wait until 1981, until the most security was To say decriminalized decriminalized. And in in France we had 2013 was the big low about. We call it marriage for for all. So some sex marriage same for us and and it has been a very difficult moment because the we knew that there were a conservative part of the French society, but there were it was not something that you will say out loud like ooh, the gay, they're not good, or. But then at that time, what we, what we heard from the people against the same sex marriage was very horrible, like it was a nightmare for Even for adults like me. Well, well, I can take the insult and reply back, but for the teenagers was like they will say a child can only be raised by his dad and his mom and there are no other kind of families and all the most sexual are perverse. And so you could. It was unleashed, the hatred was unleashed and Unfortunately, even today it's still going on. So I feel like we Say we the opposite of improved, we regress.

Speaker 1: 18:15

Yeah, that I. There's a phrase that is one step forward, two steps back, and I feel like that is kind of reminiscent of this experience.

Speaker 2: 18:26

Exactly because when we had at first, we have the kind of partnership when you can, that was working also for some sex couples and At that time it was like in the 90s, so there were some Opposition. But then they say it's not, it's not a real marriage, it's like something in between, it's like it's just a partnership. But then when they ask about the marriage, then it was. It became really violent and I was at the demonstration. You know, people in France like to go to the streets and and how can you react as a gay person or a member of the LGBT community? And you see like 500,000 people on the street Saying gay is not normal. Yeah and it was like seven years ago.

Speaker 1: 19:13

It's not, it's not very long ago, it's wild as it feels like it's on a cycle, because I think we're here at least dealing with similar things, and but they've changed their target. It's no longer like attacking adults. Really, it's like in In America the attacks are headed towards children. You were talking about activism, going to the streets and how that was seven years ago and I think you were getting to what like? What is it like now?

Speaker 2: 19:51

Not. The law has been voted and accepted, and, and so the, the populist movement, were saying that it would be apocalypse in France, but apparently the country is still there. I think God doesn't hate us so much in the end, and I think it's the, it's the whole. It's not just about the gay community. Is there is so much hatred in France now, and we just had the presidential election where President Macron has been reelected. But, okay, we can say that we don't have right-wing president or Left-wing, because the left wing are not better on that point. I mean, every time it's extreme. Of course, they are against the, the community and the. Still, we can see that they are a strong opposition now, because you can see that 42% of the French people voted for right-extreme party to be president, and they are always talking about the immigration, immigration. And there was this guy called the Zemur in France who was a lot about talking about the LGBT community, that he was complaining that today the, the French male, are not real men anymore because women have too much power and we are. Netflix is supporting the LGBT lobby. So it's all this stuff that you can hear. It's just bullshit, but you have some people that are looking at you in the eyes and say, yeah, I vote for this guy. I believe what he says and he said but come on, it's, it's so stupid. You can prove it like. Just explain to three years old and you will understand. Why can't you understand that what he's saying is stupid? There was a woman on Twitter I was debating with and and she, and she told me this is not a threat, but I tell you, if you homosexual as my son, then you will see me in the court. I say how can I homosexual your son? I mean, he's who he is. If he's gay, is gay. He's not gay, is not gay, but I it's not, because I will go to the school Talking about tolerance, inclusion that he was on and say, okay, no, I'm switching to gay. No, you, it's not working like that.

Speaker 1: 22:30

It's magic.

Speaker 2: 22:31

Yeah, and you had. There was one woman at the French presidential election saying that we should not allow operations for For trans children Before 18. I say, of course it's already not legal, because it's the law is already there, because we don't. We don't operate children, but still, if we can accept their pronouns or their new name, that's a good thing for the trans Teenagers. And the government made a law, but not a law, it's like a decree. I don't know how you call that, but To improve that that in the school in France we can name, we can easy the process to change the name and the pronouns. So they try to improve that. And then you have this guy from the right extreme saying, yeah, now they want all the children of the, the young teenagers, to change sex and all of them no we just want them to live their life like they are, because, unfortunately, what you can read in the news is like maybe three weeks ago there was a young trans boy that jumped from the windows and died, and that's what you can read on the newspaper. So that's the reality and that's what we need to address, not these crazy people that are believing in I don't know what, but far from the truth.

Speaker 1: 24:02

What's wild for me is that we're dealing with similar situations in different countries at the same time, like we're looking at laws here in America that are being passed on a local level, at state levels and whatnot, that are supposed to be restrictive of transgender students, and even here in Texas, like doctors have an obligation now because of a law to turn away transgender patients, and recently there was a young man who committed suicide because he was transgender. He went to the hospital to be treated and they turned him away and that just added to the compounding of whatever he was going through. And it drives me crazy that it's like there's some sort of guidebook on morality that's happening around the world that is basically saying, like you know, what's wrong is gay people and trans people, but what's right are all these other things that are probably morally wrong. But we're not going to look at those things, we're just going to put a spotlight on this. And so it's really interesting listening to you, because it's like you're telling me stories that very well could have been in the paper here and talking about politicians who very well could be running for office, you know, down the street or wherever. So it's wild to me just how polarizing we humans are on other human beings and that we're such a huge problem quote unquote, worldwide. It's just, it's crazy.

Speaker 2: 25:44

But here in France we are just two hours with the flight away from Russia, so I mean you can see the worst situations just nearby. Even in Eastern Europe, within the European Union, you have some countries like Poland or Hungary that are attacking the LGBT community. You have there no gay zone that they are creating in Poland and also in Hungary, and it's just our neighbors. They are not so far away and that's where you can see. And when they are starting attacking the LGBT community, you can be sure they are attacking the women rights, they are attacking the migrants. So you, when you it's all linked together, it's not just one community targeted, it's all the minorities that are targeted.

Speaker 1: 26:35

Oh, you're right, I absolutely agree with that. It seems like there is a push to continue having control. From a heterosexual male perspective. It's wild times. It's funny because I keep thinking like, wow, it's gotten so much better. And at the same times, like, dang, I'm tired, because I spent my whole life fighting for rights. I mean, when I met my husband, it was illegal for us to even, like, have relations with each other, and then we couldn't be married. And then we adopted children before we were married, which was fantastic, and then we were legally married and all these things have happened that are like improvements and big things, but then there's another battle around the corner to fight and it's, it's been wild and I can't think like, for me, I have a lot of, a lot of struggle when I think about the 80s and the AIDS epidemic and and just thinking about how, like, there's an entire generation of people that were completely wiped out because of negligence, because the government didn't think that they deserve to live, and so it's interesting that, like things have gotten better. Well, as you were mentioning earlier, it's like we get better and then, and then it's like, okay, we're going to have to take a step back here and then, and then keep pushing to move forward. So you are working at university, and one of my favorite things about university is that you don't have to deal with parents too much. Right, you're dealing with your students.

Speaker 2: 28:24

That is my dream one day I do do a little bit, but they are all adults, so that's also why I consider that I can talk about all the topics and also the difficult topics from our society. Because they are adults, so they are able to speak freely.

Speaker 1: 28:44

I love that. That's the dream. One day I want to go teach at university because it's hard, it's not only working with your students, but then there's like people behind your students that for like a high school teacher or the parents are looking at what you are teaching and also the students themselves.

Speaker 2: 29:03

They have high expectations of what you are doing. So you can, you should also come prepare and bring good stuff, because otherwise they will complain and they will tell you right to your face You're a bad teacher. It didn't have to occur to me, I just got the right, the good comments. But it occurred to one of my colleagues and once she told her that it's her lesson we're useless and it's not very nice to hear this kind of comments and then you have to argue with them because they will explain to you. They will say you are doing this and this is bad and say okay, they have high expectations, but the my solution is to bring German chocolate. And then they say you're the good teacher. Yeah absolutely, it's cultural.

Speaker 1: 29:56

You're just immersing them in the culture. I love that. It's a tiny little bribe, but it's alright.

Speaker 2: 30:04

And also they are adults, but still they are children. And this year, for example, there were one student who said sir, sir, I have a big question. Can we do a German meal for the last lesson? I was like is this really your point? Is it really your main issue in the lesson? Okay, we can organize that.

Speaker 1: 30:28

Right, absolutely, but also you need to know that's vocabulary.

Speaker 2: 30:33

Exactly, you can only eat what you can pronounce, right.

Speaker 1: 30:38

Wonderful. I love that. That's awesome. Have you had any experiences that you think negatively impacted you with regard to like working with your administration or people in like in a workplace power, or has it been relatively smooth, as other things have been in your life?

Speaker 2: 31:03

You mean as a teacher. As a teacher yeah, yeah, as a I haven't had negative feedbacks on that, but I'm sure most of my students know, because they just need to Google my name and find my Twitter and they would know. I won't say that I had very negative experiences and also at the university they are really free and they're really happy that I addressed this topic. But I can hear sometimes the students between each other making negative comments, and I had one student who was very open and loud during the class and the next semester he was hiding at the end of the room and said something wrong happened then and there is a boundary, you know. You cannot also go too much into details with the students because you are the teacher, so you should not go too personal with them. So I just went to talk to him. I hope he's okay and that if he needs to talk he is my email and he can write me. That's all I said. But I think he felt understood when I was doing that and in my class at least, he was starting to behave like before after that. So I also addressed this topic and I'm not saying this is right or this is wrong. To the students I say explain me your reflection. You say that. So why Explain me why you think that? And then the other students will reply back anyway.

Speaker 1: 32:57

I love that the idea of reflection because I think you get a lot more out of that understanding people's perspectives than being told like this is right and this is wrong and that's all there is to it. But in reality, a lot of life is a gray area. The truth is somewhere in between everything.

Speaker 2: 33:15

There was a very interesting discussion that we had with the students, maybe last month because there was for the International Day against transphobia, and there was a group of students that were really queer, with makeup and really activist. And so the other students one asked you said you want to be accepted and tolerated and be who you are, but in the end, aren't you the one that are excluding yourself? And the other students say, no, you are excluding us. No, we are not excluding you because we are in the same class and we are learning in the same class, but you want to be so different and so extremely different from the other that you exclude yourself directly. It's not that the other are excluding yourself, that you don't want to be integrated. You want to be unique, and from one side we have to accept that. If they want to be this way, that's their own thing, but at some point they are really excluding themselves. And there are these parts of the LGBT community. That is going too far in my opinion. Like for Lyon Pride Parade, they are doing a zone where it's not mixed. So you have the zone for trans people that are only allowed for trans people. You have the zone for disabled people that are only for disabled people. You have the zone where it's only for queer-colored people, and I think it's going too far because, of course, you have minorities within the communities that we need to also integrate more. And of course, there is racism within the LGBT community and sometimes when you hear, when you can read on dating app no FAT, no FAM then of course there is hatred within the community as well and it's something to address. But I think at some point it's going so far away that I had a discussion with one of the organizers and he told me I was just a white gay. I was like, yes, I am, and what's the problem? So I am supposed to be a threat to all the minorities because I'm a white gay? And no, I want to be an ally, I want to. I mean, I'm not a woman. I'm still supporting women rights. So when there is, you know, they are also marching for women rights on a special occasion and I'm going there also and I'm not a woman, so I'm not a trans person, but still I support trans rights. So why do you want to exclude me from that? But that's what they are doing at this point and in the end, I think they are re-dividing the community and on the other side, the proportion of gay people, of LGBT people, that are voting right extreme is getting bigger and bigger and I think we need to find this guy back and break them in the right place. But if we exclude, exclude and exclude, then we will be so few.

Speaker 1: 36:58

Yeah, I agree. I think that it's easier to pick us apart if we are separated within our own community than if we're standing together. It's easier to then for other groups to be like well, look, you're already separating yourselves, and so I'm going to pick on this group right now. And I'm going to pick on this group right now, and then ultimately, the whole community is negatively impacted. And I think we see that in the huge backlash happening right now with trans folks around the world. Like we're like okay, you know, marriage equality was passed for many nations around the world, and so now we're going to pick out on the transgender community because this group was too united and they won their little battle. And so I'm with you on that in the segregation within the community and the racism and transphobia that exists within the LGBTQ community is not ruining, but it is weakening the strength of the community on a whole, because we're only as strong as our weakest leak, and if our weakest links are saying we're not a community, my community is just people who are exactly like me, then there is no strength there. We can't stand together as united as we could. So I'm with you. I was at women's marches and I've been at marches for trans folk. This world is how old and we're still quibbling over the color of people's skins. It's just wild, or what people's origins are or what their religions are, and it's just kind of like there's so many things that we have that are similar that if you just look at it, just look at the other person, you'll realize that we're just humans and we shouldn't be arguing about what you believe or who you love or how you express yourself, or even this idea of it. I'm not the idea, but even thinking about how people are so avidly against transgenders folks, I'm like why Someone should be able to tell you who they are. It's not your job to tell them, and so it's just. It's so interesting that all of these things are kind of happening in cycles. I feel like we're just repeating ourselves over this. Each decade is the same kind of battles, but with slightly different language, and that it's happening everywhere. It's not something that's like oh, this is an American thing or this is a French thing, but it's literally across the board, and I think that's something that is powerful. They started doing international prides or World Pride Day, I think World.

Speaker 2: 39:49

Pride yeah.

Speaker 1: 39:50

Yeah, and I love that idea because I think that it reminds people that we're not separately fighting. A battle Like this is all around the world, and if we just stood up and realized that, like here I am in Texas and there you are in France, and we're doing the same kind of things to protect people, that's a big deal and that it may seem like 42% of the populace is voting for this group, but if we're the majority in America and we're the majority in France and we're the majority in all these locations, that there's a lot more hope than what it can be perceived as when you're looking just at your own space and within your own little world. Thank you so much, Romal, for being here today. I really appreciate it. It was so wonderful learning about your experiences, what you do as an educator, as well as just connecting over the similarities that we face in the world. Thank you so much for your time.

Speaker 2: 40:56

Thank you for inviting me.

Speaker 1: 40:59

Awesome. Well, have a great day you too. Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of Teaching While Queer. If you haven't done so already, please consider subscribing on your favorite RSS feed and sharing the podcast with your friends and family. New episodes will come out every other week during the school year. If you're interested in joining us on the Teaching While Queer podcast, please email us at teachingwhilequeerpodcast at gmailcom. Have a great day.