Unveiling the Curtain: Jimmy Chrismon's Struggles and Triumphs as a Queer Educator

Teaching While Queer is a podcast for LGBTQIA plus teachers, administrators and, well, anyone who works in academia to share their stories. Hi, my name is Brian Stanton, a queer theater educator in San Antonio, texas. Each week, I bring you stories from around the world centered on the experiences of LGBTQIA folks in academia. Thank you for joining me on this journey and enjoy Teaching While Queer. Hello everyone and welcome back to Teaching While Queer podcast. I am your host, brian Stanton, and I am so pleased to introduce you to Jimmy Crisman. He's a college professor in Illinois. Jimmy, can you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Yes, I'm a professor at Illinois State University. I head up the theater teacher education program there Before moving into higher ed here at Illinois State. I taught in the high school classroom for 17 years in North and South Carolina. Towards the end of that time is when I met my husband, who was moving to Illinois right as we were meeting, and we did a long distance relationship for a year and then I found this job and it like perfectly worked out for us to be up here together. So I am currently here with him and my three amazing stepchildren and have a wonderful life with them and our fur babies. Before that, I guess, I taught in high school for 17 years and during that time that was before any kind of workplace protections were in place federally and I was not able to be an out teacher at that time. However, my students were very perceptive and knew in their heart of hearts that I was a queer teacher and I never had to say the words. They became very fiercely protective of me throughout the school building and my principal even had me head up the Gay Straight Alliance at our school, which was interesting because I was not allowed to produce any theater plays on our stage that talked about queer topics, but I could teach them in my classroom and I could be the advisor for that program. So we can talk about the optics of that later on. But I, like I said, I was not able to be an out teacher and I remember all 17 years of my time in the classroom. My very first semester of my undergrad program, my Intro to Education, professor Dr Jals literally said in front of our whole class if you are gay or lesbian, you will not be able to be out to your students because you will be fired on the spot. Those words rang loud and true to my 18 year old ears as I was sitting there, still closeted and fearful of all things anyway because of my religious upbringing, but then now fearful of my job, so I had to keep it close to my chest at all times. I think I shared with you before the first time I ever said the words that I was a gay teacher was in front of my college students here at ISU, one of my first semesters, and I physically got sick to my stomach when I said the words because I was like, oh crap, I'm going to get fired now. But that's not the case. That's not what happened and my students are very supportive and very loving and see me very much as, I would say, a light, but a light for my queer students who feel safe and can trust me in that process and have a different voice to come to from experience when they're dealing with those things in their own classrooms.

You got me thinking about something my mom told me the other day. She said I feel a little ashamed that I didn't raise you all a little more religious, and I thanked her for not. And I'm just thinking about what you said about your upbringing and having this like fear living in you. So how was that as a child?

Oh yeah, as a child, I grew up in a very religious home. My dad was the minister of music. My mom was the minister of music's wife. I sang in the choir whenever I could. I was at church three days a week minimum in. I sang solos in church and led Bible studies, all the things. And I knew from a very early age that I was different, that I was not attracted to girls that I found the men way more attractive and interesting and as, growing up, knowing that and feeling those things and hearing every time you're in church that's wrong and that you are a be worse thing that could ever be in God's eyes, that did a number on me. That was very difficult and that permeated my school experience as well, with whatever bullying make me have come and name calling and just my experience. And I did everything I could. I dated girls, I led the Bible studies at school, I took leadership positions at school, as much as I possibly could, work my tail off to get a full ride to college and really shine in everyone's eyes so that I wasn't drawing attention to this other thing about me. And when I, when I got into my undergrad program, was during my freshman year that my my best friends and out in me to my family and I began a time of counseling that my mom sent me to Christian counselor who basically said you need to at some point come to terms with who you are, because that's okay. And I went home and told my mom that and was quickly pulled from that counselor because that was not the message that I was supposed to be being told. And so I did conversion therapy, which I why that's still on the books in any state or country in this world, I do not know. It just is such harm. And when I, when I left that and I basically came out a second time to my parents and said you know that this is just the way it is and if you you want a relationship with me, you're gonna have to, you're gonna have to be okay with it, that began a long, many year journey of them coming around and supporting and walking down the aisle at my wedding with me. So it, you know it has a happy ending and there are still things that are being worked through as far as those relationships. But but that echo of my faith and and and God, it still rings loud and clear in my head and and I I've had to navigate my own sense of spirituality and what that means to me and how I can make sense of that with who I am as a queer man.

Wow, that's, that's a, that's a lot it's wild, because it's just interesting to think that those things still happen. This to folks today, that you know we're still dealing with conversion therapy and we're still dealing with such staunch religious objection to like your family. I, just as a parent, I couldn't imagine being like there. This reason, you cannot be in my family, you cannot be this way. I mean, yeah, how do you think that experience just kind of informed your relationship and how you work with students?

Yeah, so that I remember when I first started teaching that I knew I had that fear in the back of my mind and in my heart that, okay, you can't ever say these words to these kids. But I wanted excuse me, I wanted a place and I wanted to be able to create a place and a space in my classroom where everyone was loved and welcomed exactly as they are, and I wanted to be that space that I I don't want to say I didn't have, but I didn't have as as widely throughout my school experiences, I wanted and needed. I had several amazing teachers throughout my years in school that that did create those spaces and didn't allow bullying and didn't allow homophobic language or racist language in their classroom. They shut it down. And those are the teachers that I remember. Those are the teachers I remember who I I could go to for advice I could go to talk to, I could go to when I knew I needed help with my work and they weren't going to belittle me, because there were those teachers that did do that and I never wanted to be that teacher. I wanted to. I wanted to have that space where students could come to me and talk to me, where where they could come and ask me about assignments and not feel judged by that. I and being a theater teacher as you know I wanted to do work on stage that mattered and represented my students, and I know we hear that a lot now, but I don't think in 2000 and 2001, my first year of teaching that was a very prominent way of thinking for many teachers. It was the let's put the classics on stage, let's put the hot new. The hot new show that is going to win a competition, or the musical that was just released from MTI. It was that. That was the conversation. It wasn't who am I putting on stage to represent who I have in my classroom and in my school. And that was something I wanted to do and I wanted to tell those stories of the people there who come to watch the shows and who were on stage doing the shows, so that I think that's how it influenced my approach as a teacher and a director as I grew older and realize the awesome responsibility and power that we have as teachers to be able to shape and influence and truly create a culture in my classroom that that really reflected not only who I'm teaching and serving in the school but also myself, and being more comfortable and doing that with myself, figuring out what I could get away with and what buttons I could push and what I can apologize for rather than a pass permission. For you know, once I network navigating those things with a few more years under my belt, I feel like my classroom became a place where I was able to approach topics a little more boldly. I was able to have conversations with students that were a little more bold and a little more direct, rather than round about and and and Brian, you know as well as a teacher that you know that comes with navigating and learning how to work with your administration and and you know how to communicate with them as well, so they're not blindsided by things and they're kept in the loop and they understand your instructional decisions and the why is of what you're doing. And if you've got administration who can listen to you and hear you and support you when you, when you've got valid arguments for why you want to do what you do, then you know a you're lucky. You need to hold on to that administration as long as you can, but but that makes your job a whole lot easier and makes creating that space a whole lot easier in your classrooms, and so I think I think by the time I left the high school classroom that is that's kind of where I was the faculty knew that I was not afraid of current topics. They were not. I was not afraid to talk about these things with students. I had a. I was one of the few teachers in my school that had a. This is a safe zone. I had a placard on my door and I even emailed the whole faculty with the PDF of that placard that they could print and put on their door for their students. And I had students come back and say this teacher specifically said she will not do that because she is not you and she does not want your, your ideologies, in her classroom. And I was like cool.

I feel like I've arrived with that statement.

so sad as it was for me to hear that about that teacher, I was like, well, you know who has that and who has your back. So, yeah, so that's kind of how I approached I approached that and how that shaped my relationships with my students and I was like, well, I'm just not being afraid to talk with them and not being afraid to have that space for them.

Yeah, I love that you had an administration that was able to support you in the long run, because in initial talk was like you can't say, okay, you can't, you can't do these things on stage. And it's been interesting for me, just as a person who loves history and theater, and to know that in America theater has been contested since America was created. The very first play that was ever put on stage here, what the court, and that's so American.

Do you hold a mirror up to us?

Really does, and so it's just like this constant battle that somehow performing the words is different, like we can read the same play in a high school and in English class and it is okay, but as soon as you suggest putting it on stage, it becomes problematic, and I'm just like wow, so I'm glad that your administration seems to have come around to that. Did you ever have to deal with any struggles with parents in the high school classroom?

I did. I did One that specifically jumps out at my mind right now. At the time, a young man. He is now a trans woman and I'm very proud of her and what she is accomplishing and doing. But at the time this student was in the ensemble of my musical that we were doing that year and it was a very popular musical that everyone was doing and I didn't see any issues with it. It was all based on Elvis's music and fun. It was fluffy, it was ridiculous and, like I said, this student was in the ensemble, so I didn't see any issues. I didn't see any issues with the play at all. Like I was like there's nothing in this that I'm going to get in trouble for. Fast forward to opening night. I got in trouble and I was called into my principal's office the next morning and got one of my my proverbial hand slaps from him. That you know and God blessed my principal at a time he, whenever a hand slap happened, it was always followed up with a conversation where he did listen to my side and he did hear what I had to say. But he was doing his due diligence as a principal and having the conversation that had to be had and it was all about the one character and the lead character in the play who, at one very tiny moment in act two, has this thought that he might be in love with another man in the show and quickly fleets onto the next scene. And that's never an issue, never a thing, and it's quite honestly. It's using the queer. The queer identity is a joke. In that moment which I, looking back now, I'm like I probably should not have ever done that, but it was. It's a fun, fluffy, silly moment and audience goes along with the laugh. He goes along with the lab the whole cast does. And I was like, surely this is not what this is about. Well, that's exactly what it was about, that I was using this show to try to turn her son, her son, gay. And I'm like, really, that's that this is the show. And my principal said you know he suggests anytime there's anything like that that could be questioned, we'll just bring it to me. So I have a heads up and absolutely I can 100% do that. Well, the parent didn't stop at that, she wanted further conversation with the principal. So she came in, guns blazing, just rip, roaring, yelling going off in the meeting and and then it eventually came down to well, you know he's gay, right, and the principal said the character and he said I didn't get that from the character. She said no, the teacher, mr Chris man, and he said is he? I don't care, that's not my business. I was like point one for for my principal right there. And then she said well, but you know he loves the color purple. Like purple is my absolute favorite color and like everything in my classroom. If it could be purple dare you right. Well, well, this was around the time that the purple teletubby was the gay teletubby indoctrinating all toddlers. And so she said and you know what purple means? And he got lost. My principal leaned over on the desk and said, well, well, I like purple, what does that mean? And she, she into the conversation, she's like there's nothing more for us to talk about. And she, she left the meeting and he just let me know. And I was like that's hysterical a and B. You got my back and I appreciate it. And so, from awesome, from that point forward, like, my principal was like I got you, you're fine, you're fine, you're good.

That's wild. You know he likes the color purple. I do too. It's such a great movie, it's a great play. What's a?

rabbit Well like. I said for now to she, the trans woman now, and she fully supports her trans daughter and it's fantastic and I love watching that evolution of that relationship because I've been able to stay in touch with the parent and the kid. It's been fun watching that process because it reminded me not that I was have a trans experience, but it reminded me of my experience with my parents and their journey as well. So just seeing that over time, what, what could happen and how lives and thoughts can change, yeah, absolutely, that's wonderful.

I'm glad to hear that. Such an interesting story and I used to roll my eyes at all of that. Tell it to me, are you kidding me? I think I was in college at the time and so I was like really we're worried about this kids TV show. Like I swear that some of the TV shows I watched when I were younger were way worse than tell it to be, but it was fine because they were some misogynistic so that's right, that's right. There we go, that's right, that's fine, that's fine. Gosh, you're now in the field of teaching teachers, and so what's interesting and, I think, cool for me is that you had a teacher, a professor who was teaching, tell you you absolutely cannot be gay, you will be fired on the spot, and so that informed your years of teaching for so many years, until you finally were able to come terms with the fact that it's okay, the world is changing. So what is your approach when you're working with students who are LGBTQ and, you know, dealing with maybe some nervousness or anything that they might have about going into the field?

So that was the. That was actually the question in conversation that had me share for the first time with my students. I was gay and it was a young lesbian. She was a junior, I believe, at the time, getting ready to look at her senior year, and I had the student teaching and she was. She was nervous about exactly what you just shared and she said well, what do I do as as a lesbian woman, like, how do I navigate this? And that's such a full question because you can't, I can't tell you how to navigate your life Right. That's not my place to do that. What I can do is tell you my experience and help give you tools. But the first and first thing I say to my students is I, in this classroom, where we are, and in my office, whenever you come to talk with me, I accept you exactly as you are right here right now, and that may, that may change as your journey goes on, and that's okay. I mean, I am here to be with you and learn with you and be along with that journey for you, if you want me there. But what I also share with them that their students appreciate authenticity, because students can see straight through when a teacher is not real and that a teacher is faking it. They see that through like nobody's business and and those kids can use those powers for good or they can use them for evil and make your life as a teacher great or miserable. So it's up to you how you want to navigate that authenticity and what that looks like for you in your classroom. But what I share with them 900% of the time from whether it's just navigating our department in the theater department, whether it's navigating our major within the theater department, whether it's navigating a university or larger when they're in their classrooms or clinical experiences they need to do what you feel safe doing and if that means you keep that stuff close to your heart, then you do that. And there's no shame in that, because many of those kids can be out and proud right there on campus, but when they go home for Thanksgiving break that's a very different story and many of our kids experienced that during COVID. When we shut the university down. They had to go back home. They were going back to homes where parents didn't accept that they were queer and that it wasn't a safe place for them to be, and so much mental health declined. So that's my message to them from day one as freshmen, when I get them, is that you have to do what is safe and right for you, and I think they appreciate that I'm not a firm believer in my husband. We'll echo my sentiments on this that safe and brave space is so relative and weird. To call your classroom a safe space and brave space it's almost like calling yourself an ally. That has to be given to you by the person that you're an ally. For that I don't get to say I'm an ally. Brian gets to tell me I was an ally to him and I think that's the same way with safe and brave space in classrooms. You can do everything you can to create that, but you in essence don't get to determine that. The person who is threatened is the one who gets to say that this is a safe space. And I think brave space is just another word for safe space, and I've done a bunch of research with trauma-informed work and negotiated space is the one that I've come to love recently. It was by some black scholars who created that term and I get to negotiate with the person who's not feeling safe in this space right now. What do you need to feel safe. What can I do to provide that safe space and to help you feel safe and able to function in this space with us in an educational way? So that's what I strive for is to find that negotiated space and it's truly a collaboration with the students and it's a testament to your relationship with your students to be able to do that, to have those conversations with them. What do you need? What can I do? Because I can still teach the content. I may need to approach it from a different way. I may need to do a different kind of activity to get the point across so that you're feeling welcome and a part of what we're doing here. I also, from day one, stress to them there's a difference in being triggered and having an emotional response to something. I think we use those two terms very loosely interchangeably and they're very different. There is a physical, involuntary response to a trauma, whereas feeling uncomfortable in a conversation is very different and we have those conversations early on because we do talk about queer topics in my methods classes. We do talk about anti-racism, we talk about ableism, we talk about sexism, because all of those things, all those intersections that come together, shape not only who you are as a teacher, but your classroom as well. You have all those intersections coming through your door every day. You have to acknowledge those. You have to be prepared to work with every student that you have coming through your door to be that teacher that you always wanted. And I stress that to my students and I stress that they all come in as 18-year-olds thinking I know this stuff already. I know this better than you. I've watched this TikTok. I know this. I've read this magazine article. I'm like we're going deeper, y'all. We're going a little deeper and when it's all said and done, they thank me profusely for how much I center that in our classroom and it's all of my classes. We you know freshmen handle a certain level differently than us juniors do when I have them again and different than the seniors do when I have them in student teaching. So, excuse me, it's a cornerstone in what we do and I think they very much appreciate that. Did I answer your question? I feel like I went way off on a different tangent.

Absolutely Okay, it was my question plus. And I appreciate that and I love it, because there are things that went in there that I didn't know about. I didn't know about negotiated spaces and I really liked that term and I appreciate the conversation on triggering and emotions, because I think that it's a hard line, especially for young people to understand Like there is a very fine line between the two and it really depends on where this, where the response, comes from. Yes, and I think that it's something that does push for social emotional learning that's happening in K through 12 education, I think, can help with that. We can get past all the people who are like, no, we cannot teach kids about anything that's not on the curriculum. But it's, I think, incredibly profound to just even say out loud there's a difference between the two and not everything is triggering it's immediate response. You had no control over it. Or if you're like ugh, this irks me, I don't want to have this conversation. That's like a whole other story, it's a whole other situation and I totally I think that's valid and I think it's. It's something that we all need to be learning, and there was a conversation I had with some folks the other day about perception and somebody was like well, perception is reality. And I thought to myself okay, that is a fantastic thing. You are a middle school teacher, so I think that's a very, a very creative thing that you would need to teach your middle schoolers that the way that your friends perceive you is real in their head. But we're adults and you have critical thinking ability and you have to be able to determine what did I make up and what is real. You should be able to at the time. Speech, fact, opinion, hmm, I just went on a tangent that is now causing like a whole thing and maybe because I'm like, the whole social political spectrum of our country right now is dependent on having the ability to discern between fact and opinions. So maybe you're not right, maybe I'm wrong. As adults, we shouldn't be able to do that. I don't know.

I think, and I'm going to probably open up another can of worms with a statement, but like there's a student's all the time because, like when I, when my students are in class and or when they're doing their practice teachings with, with kids at a school or something, and something comes out, comes out and comes across like really negatively or or in a tone they didn't intend or you know, what came out isn't what I meant to say. Well, there's a difference in what your intention doesn't matter the moment it leaves your mouth. When, when those words leave your mouth, your intention doesn't matter because the perception of who those words fall on is what matters at that point. So, yeah, so I don't know, I don't. You, when you saying that made me think back to a couple of students that I've had and student teaching who we've had to have that conversation about perception and intention. Well that's not what I'm interesting games because like exactly.

It's not what you meant, but it's what you said in and I think that's a fact that you can point to. And then there's other situations where it's like you know, these, these people are excluding me, when in reality there are boundaries set and those people are just observing your boundaries. Like you know, there's, it's just a, it's a wild. It's a wild navigation method of figuring out what's perception and reality. And I guess it's not. It's a great, it's not black and white. So there we go, that's what we're in that makes a lot of sense is great. it's not black and white. So, given that, like your, your younger years were, I mean, my perception is probably a tiny bit traumatic, if not a lot of it. Traumatic dealing with you know, conversion therapy and things like that. And yet you chose to go into education, which is a labor of love, and as much as I hate that people think that that's all it is and all it should be, at some level it is a labor of love. So how did you end up deciding to be a teacher?

So I my high school, my senior year of high school, I think I just knew I wanted to be a teacher. I didn't know what I wanted to teach at the time. I think I was leaning towards like being a band teacher, that's, I was a big old band kid. But I love doing the spring musical every year, like that, like I couldn't wait to get to the spring audition for that. I never had any theater classes and then band like filled my schedule any time. I had an open period where I could put something in. So I was like well, band is what I'm supposed to be doing, I guess. And I audition for music programs didn't get in because I was horribly ill prepared for those auditions and I wouldn't have taken me either at the time, if I you know, I'm on the other side of the table with a kid coming in, completely unqualified for this. So when I didn't get in those programs I was like I don't know what I'm going to do. And all through my senior year my guidance counselor at the time they were called guidance counselors pulled me into her office and she said you're applying for the scholarship and like Okay, and so she sat down with me and made me fill out this big giant application packet for what was called the teaching fellows in North Carolina, and it was, if I got the scholarship, it was a full ride for four years to teach, to teach. And all I had to do when I graduated college was teach for four years in North Carolina and it paid off the scholarship. So I applied. She'd never had anyone get that scholarship and she said you're going to be my first. And I'm like, okay, and I didn't care, I didn't care about that scholarship. And I applied and it's almost a year long scholarship process over multiple interviews, and I got the scholarship and I went to UNC, charlotte, still an undeclared education major, didn't know what I was going to major in, and so I think I started in elementary ed and so I took an elementary ed class and then, within the first month of college, I changed to secondary English ed and kind of stuck there for a little while. And then at one night in the dorms, a friend who I, like I, absolutely adored. She was a senior and I was a freshman teaching fellow and she she said, jimmy, get your, grab your coat, we're going to an audition tonight. So I grabbed my coat and went with her to the last this audition. I got a call back for it I was not a theater major at the time and she was a senior theater major and she said we both got callbacks and we were both up for the leads. And I'm like how am I up for a lead? I'm not even in this department. What is happening? And we got to the call back and she and I were on stage and she pulled me close and she said please, act like you have never acted before, because the other guy up for this role I do not want to work with. And so I acted like I never acted. I got the role and she and I were the two leads in the big spring show and after the first rehearsal she said, um, you need to take this class with me this semester. And I was like I already have an overloaded schedule. She said fine, add more, you're gonna take this class with me. Whatever Coco said, I did. So, I guess ma'am Coco and I signed up for the creative drama class with her and played the theater games and then at the end of the semester we went and taught an elementary school and led some theater games with them and the first time in front of those kids I was like this is it, I get it, this is where I'm supposed to be and I never look back.

I love that I needed a cocoa man.

I talked with her on my podcast like two seasons ago and told her that and she was like, oh my god, I didn't know I had such an influence on you.

That's awesome. It's funny. I feel like there's probably a dissertation in band kids like English becoming theater teachers and at some place there's a sprinkle of spring musical in there, because I was definitely a band kid and then I did the musical and the choir director was like, why aren't you in choir? And I was like because I can't sing. And he's like but you can't, oh wild, but that's a lot of fun. I love that story so much that I was like after two weeks of elementary I was like no, absolutely not In my brain, never was I like I'm going to teach elementary. I can't do that. I was like for a hot minute going to go into middle school teaching. And then when I found high school I was like, nope, this is it, this is where I need to be.

Well, I love the little ones and I love middle school. I know middle school is not my bread and butter, that is not where I'm supposed to be, and I do think it takes very special people from middle school and if you have that passion and desire, those kids need you. So if that's where your heart is, you need to be there. But yeah, I love the little ones and I love the high school kids. But yeah, high school is where I landed and I had a very successful time with that.

Awesome. Well, as we round out everything today, I just wanted to ask what would you say to your students, your queer students, as they're heading out into their student teaching? Like, what are your words of wisdom that you would give to the new teacher who is struggling with? Am I allowed to be myself? What can I do? We talked about briefly, but this would be like you're. We're headed out the door, you're going into that classroom. Go get them.

I guess I would say to them when I say to my freshman being your authentic self is rewarding and it's necessary, and you can only do that if you're in a place that you're safe to do that. But even if you're not in a place that you're safe to do that like your district isn't safe, your school isn't safe, your students in your classroom, you don't feel safe with them. One, really look at that situation. Is that where you're supposed to be? And two, what are the things that you can do to give glimpses of that authentic self and be that light for those kids in your classroom that are like you? Because you have them, every teacher has them and if you're, you don't always know it, though. You don't know it Because, like I mean, I think back to me. I was the religious kid in the classroom and I was the kid that the language teacher brought me a passage of scripture inside on my desk and she said I thought you'd appreciate this, you know, and great, that's cool, I also want to. I also appreciated that. That queer teacher I had, mr Caldwell, who would just look at me and say I appreciate you, you know, I appreciate you and I see what you're doing, I see how hard you work and I I just want you to know that I see that and I appreciate you and I'm here if you need anything. Those words ring louder than the scripture that was laid on my desk by the other teacher. But but find ways that you can, whether it's a poster on your wall, whether it's for me, scripts on my shelf that represented all the kids in my class black kids, indian kids, indigenous students, queer students, non-binary students, whatever that is, whether it's the safe zone sign on your door, anything at all that you can to let them know that you, you see them and you're there for them when other teachers may not be. But finding ways to put that authentic you into your classroom and what you're doing, not only that, but your interactions with your colleagues too, that makes a difference too. Indeed, absolutely. Hey, jimmy. Thank you so much for joining me today.

I really appreciate that you took your time out to talk with me. Brian, thank you for having me, and I'm really excited to see where this goes for you. Awesome, I will have a great day.

Okay, too.

Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of Teaching While Queer. If you haven't done so already, please consider subscribing on your favorite RSS feed and sharing the podcast with your friends and family. New episodes will come out every other week during the school year. If you're interested in joining us on the Teaching While Queer podcast, please email us at teachingwhilequeerpodcastatgmailcom. Have a great day.