Teaching While Queer: The Musical Journey of Ben Wilkinson and His Fight for Inclusivity

Speaker 1: 0:05

Teaching While Queer is a podcast for LGBTQIA plus teachers, administrators and anyone who works in academia to share their stories. Hi, my name is Brian Stanton, a queer theater educator in San Antonio, texas. Each week, I bring you stories from around the world centered on the experiences of LGBTQIA folks in academia. Thank you for joining me on this journey and enjoy teaching while queer. Hello everyone and welcome back to Teaching While Queer. I am your host, brian Stanton, and I have the privilege to be talking with a Northern California teacher, ben Wilkinson. How you doing, ben? Hi, brian, I'm great. How are you? I'm fantastic. I'm beautiful 105 degrees here in Texas, but the air conditioning is working, so it's a win.

Speaker 2: 0:58

Wow, that is definitely hot. I think it's about 68 where.

Speaker 1: 1:03

I am right now.

Speaker 2: 1:05

But we had 100 degree heatwave last week, so I feel your pain.

Speaker 1: 1:10

Yeah, it's been wild. It's been like 25 days here in San Antonio. Luckily, I got the privilege of going to Chicago for a couple weeks ago, so I'm good I've had my mix of 70 degree weather in the city, nice.

Speaker 2: 1:23

The windy city very cool.

Speaker 1: 1:25

So tell me a little bit about yourself.

Speaker 2: 1:28

Well, my name is Ben and I'm currently a teacher and a student. I'm in the music education field. I'm currently finishing my bachelor's from San Jose State University in music education and I'm also kind of doing a lot of freelance coaching and teaching in the area in the Bay Area. I have been coaching Color Guard, which is part of the marching band, for 18 years and then I've been teaching general music for four years and I ended up getting this job about four years ago, which kind of solidified my decision to go into teaching music full time, where I got to see an entire elementary school from TK to 5 and I got to teach them music and that was life changing and eye opening. So I said, alright, I need to go back to San Jose State finish my degree. I dropped out of school actually 12 years ago during the recession and I was just on my own, with out support and trying to come to terms with who I was as a gay person, and so it was just not the best time for me to be in school. So I took a break and got caught up in the hustle trying to survive. I worked in multiple coffee shops for years and then I decided that was not what I wanted to do forever and I really wanted to go back to my initial goal of teaching. So, yeah, so I'm back at San Jose State as a music major. I play the flute, which has been a great experience getting back into, and I also teach different color guards. I'm kind of retired at the moment. I just took my last competitive season and now I'm going into more of a consulting role. So I am helping a few different local high schools around Northern California. I'm choreographing the routines for them for their competitive parade routines, and I also work with this non-profit group based in Fremont, california, called Tri City Band Corps, which is a great kind of student run operation, but they bring in some adults to help guide, and so I was the elementary band director this past summer. We actually just had our final concert on Wednesday. So it's kind of a complicated question. I'm not like a full on teacher teacher just yet, but I have been working with kids since I was 18 years old, right out of high school, so been at it for quite a while.

Speaker 1: 4:09

Yeah, absolutely a lot of my experience. Honestly, I had 10 years as a private lessons music teacher prior to jumping into the classroom and I think that there's so much validity and that experience and whatnot and you've got the best of like all worlds. I mean, you worked pre-K all the way through high school at this point in different areas, which is so neat because you were in the gamut of basically academia, with the exception of higher education, and many of us don't get to do that. I jumped into high school teaching thinking that I was going to teach middle school and I ended up at a high school and I don't ever want to go teach middle school or elementary at this point. So I love that you've got such a wide variety in your experience because it's so unique and I think that's a joy of sharing everyone's stories. It's just hearing how different our experiences are, but we're going to time travel, if you will, and I would love to learn more about your experience as a queer student. Did you grow up in Northern California?

Speaker 2: 5:12

I did. Yeah, I grew up in a small town in the East Bay called Benisha. It's like 30,000 people, it's not like super tiny, but it's not big at all, definitely more of like a small town everybody knows everybody kind of vibe which is unique for the Bay Area.

Speaker 1: 5:30

Absolutely so. What was it like growing up as a queer student in a small town, vibe?

Speaker 2: 5:39

You know it was very much like similar to stories that I've heard from friends who grew up in the Midwest. The town itself is pretty split ideologically pretty evenly. So it's weird because it's a cool little not cool, but it's like a mix of like. There's like a little art community there and there's a huge glass blowing community and there's definitely like a liberal vibe in some ways, but there's also like a very conservative like undertone and it's kind of like. It's always kind of been very back and forth. And so, socially though, it was very difficult to grow up, not just specifically for me, but like for anyone of any kind of minority or, you know, different socioeconomic class. It was very difficult. You know kids were going through the halls, you know, screaming fag at you or sorry, the F word, and it was not fun at all, and so I stayed closeted through high school. You know I didn't even think it was an option for me to be gay, which is funny because, like, I actually moved to Benishan 8th grade Before that. I grew up in Concord and you know I was around queer people my whole life and never thought anything bad of it, but I just thought, okay, it can't be for me, like I can't do this, and the big part of that was, like, because I wanted to be a teacher and I hadn't seen much queer representation from teachers and I didn't think that could be a thing. You know, this is me as, like a young kid, I knew I wanted to teach since kindergarten, so I always kind of went into that mindset and I think that made everything really difficult for me. I think, you know, just, I was always stuck in fight or flight and trying to, you know, be in self-defensive mode, trying to blend in and not be seen. I definitely, like, was a feminine and flamboyant, but only in like places where I felt safe, and so it was interesting. It was definitely a struggle as a student, for sure, and like as a band student, it was cool because I found definite refuge. It was the gathering place for queer people. We didn't know that at the time Because none of us had been out yet, and then a bunch of girls came out in high school and were like what the heck, like where are all these lesbians coming from? And but it was great and that they felt safe to do that. And there were also we had probably like two or three trans men as well, and they got the brunt of the bullying and from my band teacher too, and it was just like whether it was like how you acted as a person or like what you wanted to wear in a concert. I mean, it was just like any issue that could have been brought up. It was brought up and it was difficult, and I know a lot of us have been in therapy and a lot of us have had to work through a lot of self-hatred and internalized homophobia and it's been a challenge for sure. And but that also kind of lit the fire under me to want to continue my education and create an experience where other people could feel welcomed and feel like, hey, maybe school can be for me too.

Speaker 1: 9:13

That's awesome. You're not the first person to tell me that you delayed coming out or being open because you wanted to be a teacher. The lack of representation was like a real thing up until recently and I even have friends now who are like, because you have come to the school and have been so open, I feel like I can be more open and it's really wild that things have come so far. But we also have these same exact like feelings in certain smaller areas of the community.

Speaker 2: 9:50

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Even this week I went and worked with a Color Guard group up in a very, very rural, remote town and they only have like six kids or whatever in their group. But the cool thing is they're all queer and they all, it was like walking in to like a magic little fairy land. I was like, wait, all of you, none of them. They're all some beautiful brand of the rainbow and it's like there's non-binary kids and trans kids and gay kids and lesbians and it's like everything in this small group and they're all just there for each other and in a town like that. I mean, I had a lot of privilege where I grew up growing in the Bay Area, cause, yeah, I did face homophobia and things, but not to the same extent I would have had I grown up in this town, and so I see what these kids are going through and their struggles and it's really difficult. Even in the few ways I worked with them, I learned so much about their culture and how they have to protect themselves, even from their parents, and it's sad but it's like also like a glimmer of hope in that small town is that there's this place for these kids to exist and it was really special.

Speaker 1: 11:05

That's awesome. Wow, you kind of went into like a little microcosm of queerness. I love that.

Speaker 2: 11:12

I know it was a trip Cause I last I it's funny. I worked with this group about 15 years ago. I had choreographed for them and I showed up and all the it was all girls and they were all dressed in hunting camo gear and the boyfriends sat on the side of the rehearsal in their hunting camo gear as well and stared at me as I was teaching their girlfriends choreography and I'm like, oh my God, are these guys gonna like jump me? And I didn't mean to like jump to that conclusion, but the way they were looking at me was kind of terrifying. So I'm like this is interesting. And now it's like totally flip-flopped and become like what I feel like is a great thing about art. It's become that place now for the kids who really need it and I just think that's awesome.

Speaker 1: 11:56

I agree. I think the arts are so impactful for so many people when it comes to finding yourself and really figuring out who you are. And it doesn't matter like gay, straight, trans, like the arts will help you piece together the person that's inside.

Speaker 2: 12:11

Yes, absolutely definitely. I mean, it's a life changer for sure.

Speaker 1: 12:16

For sure. How do you think that your experience as a queer student has informed your life as a queer teacher?

Speaker 2: 12:28

That's a great question and I think over time, like as I've become more self-aware and as I've gone through more as an adult, I've definitely evolved in that. I think when I was young I was still kind of halfway in the closet and I wanted to be that for the kids, but I was still like trying to hide it, which I mean, I wasn't hiding it, but I thought I'd there's a margin of success in there somewhere, right, right? So yeah, I mean, and then you know it's. Oh, I'm sorry, I totally lost my train of thought.

Speaker 1: 13:07

Can you repeat that you were in the closet and so now, as an out educator, how has it informed your teaching and your experience working with students?

Speaker 2: 13:18

Oh Duh, sorry. Yeah, so you know, now, as an out educator and Going through the experiences that I went through, I definitely think I go through my teaching experience through a lens of like Compassion and I try to, you know, and humanity, and I try to see Everyone for where they're at and to respect them for where they're at. And I think you know that that really plays a huge role into how I teach. You know, yes, there's standards and there's, you know, benchmarks you need to meet and whatnot, but if you can't do that through the lens of humanity, then what's the point of achieving those standards? Because those kids are aren't gonna be successful in the ways you think they're gonna be at the end of the day, and they're gonna gonna have to go back and unlearn so much stuff. So, you know, I think it's like, just like the generations before us, it's like trying to learn from the mistakes that I witnessed and experienced as a student and trying to, you know, go forward with my best foot for the students that are coming after me and trying, you know, my best to unlearn my traumas and and not project that onto them and To give them the opportunity to really grow and excel, not only as Queer students or regular students or whatever, but just as people in general. And to realize, you know, at the end of the day, whether we like it or not, we're all connected and it's a beautiful thing if we let it be. I agree.

Speaker 1: 14:52

What is it? What is it like for you, especially because you you held off on coming out. So what is it like working with queer students? You had that whole gang Of the queer microcosm so you get a lot of experience working with, with students who are already identifying as queer so young.

Speaker 2: 15:10

Yeah, you know, I think it has been a Generally a positive experience. I've had kids come out to me in places that they never felt safe coming out to other people before. I've had kids, you know, ask me what to do next in their life because they're struggling in their young adulthood and they knew that I had been through that. So they would reach out to me and be like how do I get through this? I know you've been through this and so, even beyond the classroom, I think Just letting kids know that hey, I'm one of you, like I've gone through these things there's a way you can do it and still be happy and and Live your best life for yourself and I'm trying my best to model that for you and I hope that you know those students can take something away from that and feel seen and Just Understand that there are people too and maybe feel less othered.

Speaker 1: 16:17

Absolutely. I love that idea of less othered and just giving people a space to just realize that you're a person and you get to. You get to be the person regardless of Every other a person's hood, person hood I Love that in and kind of getting into that. Oh, how do you interact with students who might not, I don't know, agree quote-unquote with the LGBT community? There's such a huge divide right now. I agree, I disagree with that, even though sometimes it's just a fact of life, right.

Speaker 2: 16:49

Yeah, and it's like you know, and my job is to fight for unity through it all. And it's like you know, in my personal life I experienced so much division and hatred, even if it's not directly at my face. You know, just opening your phone and there's always a news article of something new or someone getting gay bash or whatever. It's honestly, it's terrifying, it is. And so to work with students who have those ideologies Ideologies it can be pretty scary too, but I think, at the end of the day, my perspective on students is that their children, regardless of their age, you know, like I was a child until I was 25. Let's be real, the brain doesn't develop until it's 28, honestly, holy. So it's like I Can't fault those kids for what they've learned and you know, if hatred and bigotry is taught to them, that's not their fault. And that doesn't mean that they're not in the wrong. And it doesn't mean that I won't stand up for bullies because, best believe, I will call someone out if I hear anything racist, anything sexist, homophobic, like I won't not tolerate that in the classroom. It's my number one. But at the same time, you know, like I said, I try to meet kids where they're at and I'm like, okay, like, first of all, my main focus is on the curriculum at the end of the day, and I have a job to do there, and my job is to be able to work with people of all backgrounds, all shapes, sizes, colors, races, everything and To bring them together, especially in band, like our job is to create music together and that's one of the things I've always loved about the activity is that it does bring together left and right. It does, whether you like it or not, or agree with the person playing their instrument next to you. You know, band has a huge draw of people and a lot of those people are really in the middle of things, so, like they just want to be friends with everyone else and and that's kind of what holds the glue together. And then the people on the fringe find connections with people on the other fringe Because, hey, we might disagree with this, but look how passionate we both are and look how much we can both connect on on our vibrancy in life. You know, like I think it's it's very difficult.

Speaker 1: 19:04

I.

Speaker 2: 19:06

Don't have like a solid answer. This is exactly how I deal with it. What I will say is that I look at everybody like they're humans before their politicians. And People have flawed views all the times, myself included, and I have to constantly keep myself in check and be like, oh, this was a really racist thing. I learned I need to not do that ever again. Or you know, this is a way I'm being homophobic, what I'm gay like. How am I doing that? Oh well, I am, so I need to figure it out and stop it. You know, and there's, we all have those things that Are imperfect or mean or whatever Judgmental, and I think it's really about being self-aware and like overcoming your own personal biases and like or being aware of them at least and being able to realize, okay, like this person Doesn't think I should have any rights, but also 15, and they love to twirl their flag as much as the person next to them who went to the Black Lives Matter rally. You know, and At the end of the day, we're we're also much more similar than we are different, and I just hope that I and I believe that, especially like arts and band, is a place where people can learn from each other and learn to draw respect for each other, and some of them will change their views as well and become more open-minded. You know, I was friends with a ton of Republicans in high school and I tried really hard to stay in the middle, but a lot of times I won them over and they were like you're right, like gay people should be able to get married and and whatnot. So it really like it's hard to generalize, like against people. You know, liberals are very just as much as guilty of stereotyping other people as as as they are of us. Granted, you know, we're not the ones you know trying to vote against human rights. So I think there is that bias also. But I also Think my job as a teacher, whether I like it or not, is to remain neutral and to Primarily be an educator for those students and to help guide them. And you know, like I said, I will always put compassion and empathy first and that's my job to teach those students. If they can learn that, then they'll be able to play music just fine. If they can't learn that, they can't play music, it won't be music. So, yeah, I guess that's my long-winded answer on that.

Speaker 1: 21:39

I love it. I think that there's something to be said about. I mean, we've been taught for ages I feel like it's been repeated that music is this universal language and you have the privilege of teaching that To students and I think that teaching kindness and compassion Along with music I think that that is, it goes hand in hand and it's such a powerful statement and reminder just how important the arts music is for students. So I think it's great, it's a unifying idea and you even started with that first of all. I start with unity. So I think that's just, it's powerful and it's fun for those of us who teach of the arts right, like we have this, this Extra level of we get to shape humans just a tiny bit more than maybe a core subject teacher, like I teach theater and I've seen how my students learn empathy because they played a character who had different circumstances and I've seen how Listening to certain types of music or performing certain types of music has impacted or changed the Emotional range of my students. I mean, it's an exercise sometimes we just put on warm-up music and we move our bodies and you. Yeah, as it could be melancholy and it could be happy, and it's going to change the vibe.

Speaker 2: 23:07

I love it.

Speaker 1: 23:09

Of the students, and so I think that it's just powerful, and we're so lucky that we get to teach the arts.

Speaker 2: 23:16

Oh my gosh, yes, yes, Definitely. It's such a privilege. I mean it does as much as it feels like work and it drains my soul and I'm like thank god there's summers out in between, but it's beyond. I mean I spent my 20s in corporate America and I will take teaching any day over anything else.

Speaker 1: 23:34

Agreed. I had the same experience of working with several corporations and I'm like I just love my little classroom and then I get to not be around those people for three months and then I get to come back and be like yes, we're a family again.

Speaker 2: 23:52

Right.

Speaker 1: 23:52

But also take my space. You know Exactly.

Speaker 2: 23:56

Have time to be an adult too, for sure.

Speaker 1: 23:58

Absolutely so. Given that you've worked in a wide variety of spaces, from like conservative areas to more liberal areas, what has your experience overall been like working with administration and parents?

Speaker 2: 24:11

You know it's actually I have had a 99% positivity rate, I think, in my experiences with administrations and parents. Typically my jobs have been like more of coaching roles, so I haven't really been directly involved. Usually the band director is my boss, so I don't really work with the administrations very often. But I also have worked with administrations when I was a general elementary music specialist for two years in Walnut Creek. I had a great principal. She was very supportive of me and my goals and guided me like through and was like let me know what you need, I'm here for you. And that was an interesting place to work because it was liberal but it was also very white. So it's like it still was problematic in its own right, but like it wasn't. It was but it was okay to work. Like there were a couple other gay men there that worked. So I was like okay, like I'm not completely alone, but I didn't feel like 100%, like supportive and diverse, but the administration would really support me in my endeavors and I never had any problem with being like gay. Like my principal worked for cheer SF, which is a big cheerleading team, because she was a cheerleader in high school and whatnot, and so she was very supportive and she even tried to start a pride parade. Well, I guess a parents wanted to start a little pride parade at the elementary school because we had fourth and fifth graders that were coming out and both as queer and trans, and it was awesome yeah so much that people are so empowered to be themselves at a younger age. Right, I'm like I can't even imagine, like, and it's so cool to see, I'm just like so happy for these kids, like like wow, you know yourself so well and you're just like this is who I am and I'm like good for you, like I love that you're in a place where you can do that. That's so freaking amazing and so so much for how much better in some ways, the future is going to be Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 26:24

Have you had any? Had much experience working with parents? I know that you've been more on a consultant. And definitely like as a color garden instructor. I understand like the dynamic is. The band director is kind of the point of contact, but I know that you know color guard could be a tight knit group and you're, you know, the leader of that. So what has it been like working with parents?

Speaker 2: 26:50

You know, generally my parents have been really supportive of me. I've only had one school and ironically it was the high school I went to. I went back to teach there and that's the only school. I've ever had an issue with a parent and it was because I didn't give their kid a solo and I'm like, oh okay, well, I'm not going to get into that Like that's a whole podcast, but my experience going back to my high school teaching as a queer person would not recommend to anyone ever, by the way, because you would counter so much PTSD of like just walking down the halls, you all these flashbacks and things. If you didn't have like a fabulous out experience in high school, I would not recommend going back to your high school Because I've definitely like internalized homophobia all over again. It's crazy.

Speaker 1: 27:36

I've been thinking about that recently, because I did try to connect with former teachers who, let's say, weren't like they weren't supportive. But they weren't not supportive, they were kind of just like neutral and I just had like the worst time trying to connect with them. It just felt like it felt wrong and it brought back a lot of things from high school that I probably forgot about for good reason and I was like, oh shit. That was homophobia, like, and I just didn't know.

Speaker 2: 28:10

Totally totally.

Speaker 1: 28:12

So the idea of going back there to try to teach, even though you know I grew up in a suburb of Los Angeles in Southern California, supposed to be very liberal and whatnot, but those suburbs have a conservative and it and it's funny because I look at even like my 20 year class reunion was last weekend and I've seen posts about things and and there's literally myself and one other person representing the queer community still and I'm just like oh, my God how did how did that happen? And it could just be. The other people have disappeared and they don't want to associate, which is fine, because I'm kind of the same vein, like yeah, I'm on this Facebook page but, like I, literally have no desire to talk to some of you, but it was just wild to me thinking about like I, I'm a queer person, I'm married, I have children and I'm the only one showing that representation is is so interesting and there's so many of those folks still live at home or that community. So I'm like, oh like, if I, if I moved back there and I tried to teach, I would hate it.

Speaker 2: 29:28

Absolutely. I know that it's definitely a. What I experience and it wasn't the kids that I directly taught, you know is the environment overall, like the kids I taught were great, like I don't want to say that like it was them at all, it was just reliving that experience itself was like really difficult. And then that made that difficult for me to be a good teacher and that was what was really hard for me is like I'm I'm used to teaching at a certain level here and I'm like, okay, now I'm having anxiety attacks all the time, having all these breakdowns. I'm in therapy like all the time. Now this is not working. So I did eventually leave, but I went. I went back one more time because they were desperate me for an instructor last year and but I didn't do it alone, I taught with a friend. So I was like I'll just come in and help and that was better, I could handle it. But I was like, all right, I need to not teach at my own school and let's keep the past in the past.

Speaker 1: 30:22

Absolutely. It's weird how you can be traumatized without realizing you're traumatized and then you walk into a space and all of a sudden you have PTSD and you're like what is happening?

Speaker 2: 30:34

It's a trip, and then I'm like, oh, it works through everything. And then it's like, nope, they're so funny All right, I'll see my therapist on Thursday.

Speaker 1: 30:42

Thank you.

Speaker 2: 30:46

Exactly. But I think, on that note, taking care of your mental health as an educator is so important. It's just and no one does it. Because we're educators, we're so focused on the kids, we forget about ourselves and it's like no, you have to take that time for yourself, even if it's five minutes a day, and get grounded and remember why you're doing what you're doing, and see your family and make time for yourself. Like if you don't do those things, it just becomes this spiral and you burn out and no, that's that. It's not fun. And then the kids are having a miserable experience and that's the worst for them, because that's their perspective of the future.

Speaker 1: 31:29

It's wild Because I think, because of education, I have more healthy habits when it comes to mental health, because it was the stress of a school year that got me into therapy and then I started doing yoga and meditating and all of these things to just kind of balance out the amount of stress that I deal with.

Speaker 2: 31:48

Yes.

Speaker 1: 31:49

And I probably should have been doing this for the last 20 years corporate life, but it was finally the push that I needed and I'm so much better for it. Like, taking those steps for mental health has made me like a better person as well as a teacher, and it just kind of it's been an eyeopening experience because I didn't realize how much I needed these things until I was pushed to the edge of burnout and really had to have a talk with myself about, like, how are you going to get through this? Can't do it all on your own, obviously.

Speaker 2: 32:22

Right, right, and I mean it's hard. It's hard to overcome that stigma. I mean I was even raised around therapists my whole life and I still was like, oh no, I can work this out on my own and I'll be fine, and then. But then your trauma projects onto other people, whether you realize it or not, and especially in a teaching role. That's just really, really harmful and I've experienced that as an educator, like when I was younger. I was always here and super rude to the kids and we need to be clean, we need to da da, da, da da, we need to win. And now I'm like, no, absolutely not. That's the last thing on my list. I want to make sure you guys are OK. I want to make sure we're having a good time and still learning, because they learn better when they're in a better mental health headspace, just like we teach better when we're in a better headspace. So if I'm in that headspace, the kids are going to model that and I think that's the crucial part of teaching is, these kids are literally modeling the behaviors we are showing them every single day.

Speaker 1: 33:18

Yes, absolutely. There's so much that happens at home, but there's also so much that they learn in the classroom just from observation. Yeah, and being around different types of people.

Speaker 2: 33:30

Right, right. And I see these kids like you do in theater, I'm sure, for four years and it's like you see them grow into adult humans over that time and they trust you and they want your guidance because you're teaching them what they love. And it's like I keep my boundary very clear with them. I never cross that, but I would be supportive of them if they're having a bad day and try to show them that it does get better. I'll never forget that Trevor Project campaign. It gets better. When I was younger and a coach and I was to have a bad mental health day, my color guard staff, I was the head instructor and they'd all be like Ben, it gets better, it's OK. Ok, you're right, you're right, it's going to be OK, it's going to be OK. The Trevor Project's like yes, my whole set.

Speaker 1: 34:21

This podcast is not sponsored by the Trevor Project.

Speaker 2: 34:24

Yeah, it's not a name job, this is free marketing.

Speaker 1: 34:29

That's so funny. But I agree with you and one of my favorite things as an educator especially because I do get that experience like you do, where I'm working with students for multiple years is the transformation that happens between January and May of the senior year, like these kids totally transform into a young adult. We've already talked about it. The brain doesn't finish developing until you're 27. You're still kind of a child during this time period. But you see, after those college applications have all been turned in and it's just a matter of waiting, all of a sudden they get to focus on. Who am I now? Yeah, because this is ending and it is such an interesting transformation and for any parents or teachers who are listening who have had this experience like it's wild to see right, it's the most magical thing, I think. When I get to the second semester every year, I'm just watching, waiting to see when's the moment where they start looking like a young adult.

Speaker 2: 35:32

Yes, oh my gosh, yes, that's why I love high school so much is because, you know, it's like we're like their last little like gate to pass through into adulthood and it's like we can give them our their last little life advice and, and, you know, kind of like and help like if they're having like Help with their perspective too, because, like, a lot of kids will get, you know, torn down and beat up all the hormones and Everything and get depressed and it's like, but if you can help like, guide a student to channel that into positivity and into, you know, self-love and acceptance, like they can do that it's still they're still young enough where they can Change their attitude and perspective on life and it's like I mean worse, no one's too young or too old to do that, but To be able to do that right before they, like you, go into the real world and just be like, okay, you're gonna be good, like I already know you're just like all my kids I already assume like positive intent and like you're gonna be a good kid, but like Seeing them that in that last transformation, when they finally like shape into they are, and you're like, wow, and Every time I'm just like you've become such an amazing person like it's just beautiful to see.

Speaker 1: 36:45

Yeah, it's, it's a wonderful, it's one of my favorite things, honestly. Um, so we're winding down, so I've just got two couple of questions for you. One is what? Why education? You do anything, and especially in the arts, like there's so many things we could be doing, but what? Why be an educator?

Speaker 2: 37:08

That's an interesting question. I would just say, like my personal passion I love art, I love playing music. My passion is teaching my what I really love is seeing somebody understand something for the next time and for the first time and Just getting that excitement like oh my gosh, I was able to do it and make that connection. That's what I live for. Is is just being able to help. I knew I wanted to be a teacher since I was like in kindergarten, though I I don't know why, like I just remember starting kindergarten and I loved my teacher and I was like that's what I want to do with my life. I was like I had a pretty not great home life as a kid, so like I'd go to my kindergarten class and my teacher was nice to us, I was like what, what is this like? And I was like wait, there's a place that can be great. And I think that really shaped my perspective of what school could be.

Speaker 1: 38:00

I love that and I love that you went. You were in elementary education previously and so you kind of got that. You got to be that person. That's so awesome.

Speaker 2: 38:08

Yeah, it was fun. I think I do want to teach high school because it's a lot of energy and performativeness that, for me personally, just is draining, but I loved working with the kids. It's really fun. Age.

Speaker 1: 38:20

Yeah, absolutely. That's one of the things. I've always wanted to be a teacher, probably since I was in middle school, but I thought I was gonna be a band director. So the fact that I'm teaching like a whole, like it's not really a left turn because I still teach the arts, but like we have a common educator. My freshman year of high school, I was in band with miss Hollinger. She was my band director and she teaches at San Jose State, where you are, you're getting your bachelors, and she just like was pivotal in my kind of upbringing. She was the person that made me feel safe and I only had her for a year. If you go back and listen to the first episode of the podcast, she is the person I'm talking about when I explain my coming out story. Oh my and she's been so impactful that she's literally the only teacher that I still communicate with from that school, even though you know I had her for all of six months Before she went on to pursue her masters and eventual doctorate. And so that just that impact of teachers is so Amazing, how it can just stick with you and to know that you had that experience as a kindergarten, it's just like wonderful, like what an amazing thing for your kindergarten teacher To have been able to do for you, like what a gift.

Speaker 2: 39:41

Yeah, shout out to miss Grace if she's still alive. That's funny because, yeah, dr Hollinger is my number one Educator as well and and she, you know, and I dropped out of school she's the one who prodded me for 12 years and was like please, come back, please, come back, please come back. I was like I'm not good enough, like I can't do it, I don't have money, blah, blah, blah. And then finally, like the pandemic, it was like, okay, I'm coming back. And she was like no, and it's all because of her. Really, like I mean, she was the first person in college when, you know, I had to threaten a lawsuit to be in the marching band because they didn't want boys in the color guard at At San Jose State, 12 years. Yes, I was like okay, well, that's kind of illegal. And then the dude is like okay, I'll see you at band camp. Then I'm like, okay, great, thanks. Like yeah, I know I old and so I felt really freakin alienated at that school, like I. It was a huge reason why I dropped out. And I was like you know, diana was dr Hollinger, was trying to get me to come back and and she's like come back, come back. And I'm like I'm not going back to San Jose State, absolutely not. Like I love her, but like I didn't want that at homophobic experience again. And she's like, no, it's changed, I promise, I promise, blah, blah, blah. It's different now. And I was like so I met with her, we talked for like four hours and and I was like, okay, I have to go back, like, if anything, I'll get to like learn more from her, because she's just freaking phenomenal and she just leads with such a Passion and a like, a fiery passion for, for justice and for kindness and for empathy, and it Changed my whole perspective of what music could be, because I got the polar opposite in high school. Where it was, we were undefeated and totally obsessed with winning, and it's crazy. So, um, you know, she's absolutely changed my life and I will forever be and grateful to her.

Speaker 1: 41:38

That's so crazy how many people she's impacted to. Because one the band director I think he's now the head band director there Went to high school with me or graduated the Craig and he, um, he was like influential on me as well because like he was leading band camp in and doing all this stuff and he was in choir and like I learned like oh, I could do all of these things and then now he's back working with her there and his wife. Like his wife played my mom in Tommy and we we're like, we're so connected and it's just wild because those people are like the important people and the fact that they're all connected together is so cool. Um the fact that she's still making that impact on other people, like she haunted you for 12 years and you went back to school. Like how cool is that.

Speaker 2: 42:30

Everyone else my mom, anyone else who kind of helped raise me as a kid is like you're just not meant for college, you're too poor, you don't understand how to work hard enough to make it all happen, so you're just not met. And then I believe that you know, and, and then she, she changed my mind and was like no, we need queer educators please. And I'm like, okay, all right, I'm already working with kids, like it's what I've always wanted to do. I just didn't feel like I had a Pathway to do it because of financial things and whatnot. Like they have a really supportive partner who's been helping keep down the fort. Well, it's cool. So it's made a freaking huge impact as well.

Speaker 1: 43:08

Awesome, that's fantastic. Final question for you what is a bit of advice that you would give to someone who is Wanting to become a teacher but a little bit concerned about coming out? I mean, that's an experience that you had, so what would be, what would be your advice to that person?

Speaker 2: 43:27

You will be the best Version of your teacher self if you are the most authentic version of your teacher self. If you're holding something in, your kids will realize it and it will make your job harder. And Not just your kids will realize it, but it'll make their lives harder. Because when we are not able to Accept who we are means there's things that we don't like about ourselves and it means that we see the world through that lens of the things we don't like about ourselves and the things we do. But it's crucial that we don't project that energy on to children and it's the hardest part about teaching and it is the most important part about teaching because it determines what the younger generation will feel about us, our country, our world and how they're gonna go about their adult lives to keep it going or not.

Speaker 1: 44:31

That's beautiful. Oh, I love that. Well, it has been so great talking with you and getting to know you. Thank you so much for spending the afternoon with me and I wish you so much luck as you finish your bachelor's program and jump into the world of being directing.

Speaker 2: 44:50

Thank you so much. It was an honor to talk with you. I hope I helped. I hope you have great successes with this podcast. I think it's amazing and, just you know, if this is something I had 15 years ago, I think it would have really helped me for sure, and I'm grateful to be a part of it. So thanks so much for this conversation.

Speaker 1: 45:13

Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of teaching wild queer. If you haven't done so already, please consider subscribing on your favorite rss feed and sharing the podcast with your friends and family. New episodes will come out every other week during the school year. If you're interested in joining us on this teaching wild queer podcast, please email us at teaching wild queer podcast at gmailcom. Have a great day.