The Inspiring Story of Abe Ramirez: Queer Educator and Advocate

Speaker 1: 0:05

Teaching While Queer is a podcast for LGBTQIA plus teachers, administrators and anyone who works in academia to share their stories. Hi, my name is Brian Stanton, a queer theater educator in San Antonio, texas. Each week, I bring you stories from around the world centered on the experiences of LGBTQIA folks in academia. Thank you for joining me on this journey and enjoy teaching while queer. Hello everyone and welcome back to Teaching While Queer. My name is Brian Stanton and I am your host. Today I am having the privilege to speak with a good friend of mine, abe Ramirez. Welcome, abe. Hello, how are you doing today?

Speaker 2: 0:49

Other than it being literally last day of summer before we go back.

Speaker 1: 0:55

It was great. I mean, let's not talk about that. Let us not talk about. That is inappropriate conversation.

Speaker 2: 1:00

But no, I'm good, I'm great. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1: 1:03

Oh, you're welcome. Thanks for being here. So what do you teach? What do you do?

Speaker 2: 1:08

I do a lot of things. I am a high school theater director at Davenport High School here in San Antonio, Texas, and I teach from basic acting to musical theater, dance and technical theater. So I do it all.

Speaker 1: 1:26

So you are a high school theater director, and what was it like for you if you don't mind going on a journey with me back in time what was it like for you being a queer student? Like your educational experience?

Speaker 2: 1:44

It was a wild ride. I don't know if I ever told you this. I kind of was in a weird situation growing up where I was a pastor's kid and my father was a Methodist minister, but not like Methodist now, because now they broke in and branched off into two different organizations if you guys didn't know that, but also a military brat, and so it was very, very difficult to navigate. I did not know what the word gay meant until maybe seventh, eighth grade year when I heard the word called in a derogatory sense towards me and I was like I don't even know what this is. And then, of course, you went to the encyclopedia. You go to the G's, the G book, and you look it up. You're like, oh see, homosexual. Then you go to the H book and you pull that up and you look it up. You're like, oh, this is a thing, and that kind of just sparked this, I guess. Aha moment Like, oh, I think this is right. And throughout middle school that was like a middle school process, and so it wasn't until I finally was able to surround myself with good friends and people that I felt comfortable with, and it was when I first did a one act play in middle school I wasn't always in theater, as people think. You must have been doing this your whole life. I was like yes and no, but it wasn't until I was surrounded by people who I felt comfortable with. That I was like I think this is actually a thing and I am gay. But I also knew better as to my circumstances weren't the best and I wasn't in a safe place and I had a lot of dark moments Recently going to therapy. I still have things I haven't dealt with yet. But when I went to high school, because I was a military and pastor's kid, we moved around a lot and I never was. It was good for me but also unfortunate, because I was never able and never in one place long enough to people ask questions. Right, it was like you were there, you were the new thing, people liked the new thing, they gravitated towards the new thing because I was like this new energy. And then once things kind of like people would ask questions, I'm like, okay, I got to go by and then we'd leave. Finally, eighth grade, into going into my freshman year here in San Antonio, I went to Longfellow Middle School, saisd. That fed into Jefferson High School, which was, back in the day a fine arts magnet school. When I did that first play at Longfellow one act play I was like this is actually pretty cool. I really thought this was a thing and people told me I was good and yada, yada, yada. But now in the education mind I know it's because I was a boy, they wanted boys to do it. So I then applied, auditioned for the late Robert Reem and I got into the program there at Thomas Jefferson and once I was there I did not know that that school is known as the Rainbow School. If you didn't know back in the day, I don't know if it is anymore. This is a tangent, but one of my ex students, who's now like a great lighting designer in town and went to Corpus Christi, is now the TD there and he texted me. He was like I'm the new TD at Jefferson. I was like do you understand what this means? You're like where I went to high school. And then he also circle moments even better. He also is a recipient of the Robert Reem scholarship. That he got to go to school to be in theater Isn't that crazy. So every time I see him I get so proud. And then when he told me that I full on, just like bald, I was like you don't understand how much this means to me. I'm happy for you, so much I'm happy for you, but don't forget the little people I know. I have a whole packet of stuff I need to give him because he was like I don't know what to do. It's like you're gonna be fine, so yeah. So when I was at that school, the rainbow school known as Thomas Jefferson, that's where a lot of like you know, like drill awakenings happened. You meet the older high school so weird, because you have 14, 13 year olds in the same building as 18 year olds. That's wild to me. And if people are like oh, they're all kids, like no, they aren't. You've obviously never talked to a little freshman and you've obviously haven't like had to talk a senior down like obviously. But that's when I kind of like I saw another penis for the first time. I know that was crazy and it was in a dressing room because you had to dress out like I wasn't a sports person so I wouldn't go to the locker room. And then when I was in PE I'd been like I'm not dressing up because I didn't feel comfortable. But that was like all these like sexual awakenings and stuff and meeting people, having your first like queer kiss and like all that happened, and then, of course, rumors, speculation, and then, but again, luckily I left after the first year, my freshman year left. We went to another place and the same thing had happened again. So there at Thomas Jefferson in San Antonio, I was able to at least breathe a little bit at school. But then when I went back home it was like completely, like you know, bottled up, have to be this like pillar of excellence and pillar of moral standing, because you were the pastor's kid. And then when we went to the second high school that I went to, for my sophomore year was, which was in Channel View, texas Do you know where that's at?

Speaker 1: 8:05

I have no idea where Channel View is.

Speaker 2: 8:07

So Channel View is near the Houston area area, as if you're going to Pasadena like right in that crossover. That's where our Channel View of Texas is. And so my dad left the conference that he was in and moved to another conference in the church, and that was the opening that they had, and I went there. I should back up because Thomas Jefferson, robert Rehm, auditioned me to be in the program but unfortunately and this is where I have to get back on my soapbox about theater safety Unfortunately he fell, and if you've ever been to Thomas Jefferson High School, you know that that's an old, 1921 built auditorium, beautiful, beautiful. I always am so lucky, and I remind myself how lucky I am to have been able to perform on that stage. It's so beautiful and if you're ever in San Antonio, you see a production there.

Speaker 1: 9:06

Just go, because it's just gorgeous and they just finished a remodel of they. They brought it back to its former splendor.

Speaker 2: 9:15

I'm so like, my heart is in that school, I love that school so much, and so he fell into the orchestra pit, which is an old, old time orchestra pit. There's no nets, there's nothing, and it was. It's an old building. So when I went there in 2005, six, they still had the old footlights that you would put the little round light bulbs in. They still had those. Of course we were going to use them, but they still had it. So there was a lip there. So if you weren't careful, you could easily catch your foot there and that's unfortunately what happened. He fell and unfortunately, was paralyzed for like five years afterwards. And then so he was the one that kind of like. I was so excited to work with him. I heard all these great, amazing things from like the upperclassmen about him. And then, when I did go there, that's when I met Robert Brown yeah, I don't know, okay, but Mr Brown, he was this, I don't know. He was like that uncle that you know is there but you're not close with, and that's who he was to me, because I was serious about theater and my path and journey, but I didn't know and I also was like trying to figure out myself, because it was a very confusing time. Very confusing time and I didn't. I mentioned him, obviously, because we're talking about our educators and who influenced us, but later on he's going to come back and play a very important role and what? How I, how I speak to my students to this day. So I went to Channel V Texas next and that's where Catherine Dowdy was there. I think she just retired recently, but I was not in theater that year. I know crazy. I was actually in choir that year, not in choir, I was a choir boy.

Speaker 1: 11:24

But what if I raised the stakes and told you I was a band kid, a choir boy and a drama nerd?

Speaker 2: 11:31

Oh, it's going to get great when we get to my junior year. So I was a choir boy and I did just solely choir. I took voice lessons with him. I was forced to be a bass because they didn't have any. Yeah, and you know, you don't. It doesn't sound like I could do that at all, but I was. I sang it because they needed it and I filled him that nice little spot there. But then when he trained me to sing my voice lessons, he was like you're really a tenor, but for choir I needed to sing these notes and I hated it because I had a switch back in my head from the bass clap to the treble clap and it's so annoyed me and I was like why can't they just all be the same? So I would sing things wrong often. But I was still heavily involved in theater even though I was a choir boy, because the musical came up and you know that's my jam, and the musical came up and so I auditioned. We were doing Joseph and the Amazing Tech Height of Drinko. I auditioned and I got pot of her. Yes, so, but I was also get this the understudy for Joseph. No, and they gave Joseph to this nice pectoral looking Troy Bolton-esque boy who never done theater before in his life, and they gave it to him and he did have a beautiful voice and I was like, ok, that makes sense, whatever. And then I think it was like a month after the cast list went up, they're like we're going to need you to be the lead. I was like why Homeboy got sent to turn to school.

Speaker 1: 13:16

Oh no, I don't know what he did.

Speaker 2: 13:20

I can't remember his name for life and me I bet you, if I got a yearbook I could like point at him. But yeah, so I was Joseph. That's super cool.

Speaker 1: 13:30

I got a lead my junior year, but the first two years I had to pay my dues and just be like named person 37.

Speaker 2: 13:39

But that's where my journey is a little bit different, because I was never in one place to have that rapport or have put in my dues. I had to, from the ground running, work my ass off to prove to people I can do this if you just give me a chance. And they gave me a chance. That was Mr O'Reardon, the choir director there, and then Amistadie, who was a theater director there, and then she told me afterwards I wanted you, I didn't know if you could handle it, and she's like you proved me wrong. And then I won the best actor that year for that role that I did. So that was cool and it was so cool also seeing her at Thespians and TTA. She's like I can't believe you're here. She's like, literally we have a poster and then there's your picture right there. I was like, oh my God, when I had grew up my hair, I know I had it long. And that's when I found out I have curly hair. Actually I just got it short because you know it's easier that way and so that was good. And then that's when I kind, of course you're 16, 15, 16, you're getting more like sexual awakening. I did have like my first, like full on, like same sex make out session in the hallway of the band hall.

Speaker 1: 15:02

I'm telling you, there's a band hall. When American Pie said one time at Bandcamp they're not lying, they are not lying.

Speaker 2: 15:14

It's because of the sound. You got to make sure the sound doesn't escape. But that so that I also had like a whole bunch of like. Because I was the new thing, I had a whole bunch of people wanting to like date me. But I was an emotionally ready to do that because I was still having to be very socially like aware of like who was around me at school, what got out, what didn't get out, because I had people in the church who went there and like it was just like playing this, this game of playing with fire. That happened that year and I've never felt so free when I was at school but also choked Like it was like this weird feeling of I can be myself in this specific room, but when I leave this room, the theater require room I have to put on this disguise and it sucked, because I look back and like all that guy was actually really nice, I should like I wish. That's why when we were watching like all these, I think I told you I don't know if we have to come to you, but when you watch like Netflix, heartstoppers, like you get so happy and then at the end of it you just are super depressed and sad. It's because you're mourning what you never had and like that, that, as I'm older and hindsight looking back, I'm like, damn, I could have had maybe like a good relationship, you know, like seeing the people on Instagram and like, oh, they're living their best life. Good for them. I wonder what, if you know that stupid if question.

Speaker 1: 16:48

But if it's such an interesting thing, because I have that experience to from not only Heartstoppers, but like I was reading a book actually called like what if it's us? And and it read that, yes, but at the end of it I'm like what, what if that could have happened to me?

Speaker 2: 17:07

Did you? You know there's a sequel, right. Oh, I read it.

Speaker 1: 17:10

Did you read it I?

Speaker 2: 17:11

read it. I don't like it that much.

Speaker 1: 17:13

It wasn't as good, but you know that's off topic. Yeah, this podcast is not sponsored by Netflix, nor is it sponsored by Becky Helbertairy.

Speaker 2: 17:24

There you go, there you go, there you go. Where was I? Okay, so that's sophomore year. Still, like I would say, freshman year is me understanding that I'm queer gay. Sophomore year is me exploring that Junior year is when shit gets like real. Yes, let it get real. So we were. So let's just say the church didn't really enjoy my father and his preachings and so we left that church. But because we left, the way the message is church works, you're supposed to go, you're supposed to get appointed somewhere. And because it was between conferences, so he left one conference and then was in another one, but because he pulled out of this one the waiting list to get back into this old conference that he had history with. Because my grandfather was a pastor, my dad was a pastor, like there's a whole lineage of like religious teachers in my family, but because of that conference had a long list, because of course, people move on, they don't like people unfortunately die and they don't have the same ties to people anymore. And so we were homeless for like three months, like legitimately we're homeless, didn't have a place to stay, didn't have a place to call home, because we lived in Parsonage. And those of you who don't know what a Parsonage is. It's just it's the house that the church owns legally. It's the property that they own that they allow the pastor to live in and his family, and so that's what we've lived. My whole entire life was that we've never called a place my home like my childhood home. I don't know who she is. That's wild. Yeah, explained a lot, right.

Speaker 1: 19:13

I didn't know any of this about you.

Speaker 2: 19:18

Yeah, so we're kind of all split up. My parents went to go stay with my aunt and her spare, like Minnie house in the back of her yard, and I was spending the summer with my sister, my brother, in their apartment with their roommate. So it was very, very tight, very like. When I think back about like that moment, I was like what the hell? Like we were not together, like the family was never the same after that, and I felt jealous too, because my brother, my brother's 12 years older than me, so me and him only like connected when he was a senior and I was like going to kindergarten and then that's it. Then yes, that's why he left, right, and then my sister's, eight years older than me. So I was there to see her like go through high school and like that drama and I was just well, I'm with your kid and like watching Cliff right after school. And then she left and I was like when is it gonna be my turn? Like it was like that idea, because I just felt so stifled and I felt like I couldn't be my most authentic self. And then, when I was that summer, like seeing them in this like little bubble, like in this apartment, I was like, man, this is what I want, like this is what I need, is this, this? So that in the back of my head kind of like stayed there throughout the course of my education. So junior year happens. So we find a house it is actually in North Side ISD and I would have gone to Taft High School, which, if you know who's there now Amanda Pyle, amazing director. Anyone gets to work with her, she's brilliant. But she was not there during that time. But I didn't wanna go there. I called up Mr Brown at Thomas Jefferson and I said, hey, I don't wanna start anew, I still wanna do performing arts. I don't know if this is able to happen, but can I come back and be a magnet for theater again? Like I'll audition, I'll do whatever you need me to do, like I just I wanna come back. And he was like, of course, like I'm not gonna say no to you. He's like so, yes, so I was able to because he was head of the magnet program. So I was able just to go into my old school like normal, like nothing happened, like I was on like a nine month break, and just go back and be with my friends the ones I lost and then also like having to. It was a weird sense of like regaining those relationships but also knowing it's not the same because the year went by. So I made some people upset because I like, like you said, people who were stayed there the whole time like how to work their way up, and I just come in and they're like what the hell? Where does this guy come from? Channel view is where I was at, but no, that year was the year for me that I owned my sexuality, not that I was promiscuous, but I knew this was who I was. And also think about Thomas Jefferson. At that time you had to wear uniforms, and so it was just like the khaki bottoms with I don't know why they decided to go with Royal Blue and Red, this dumbest, dumbest colors you could choose. Or the alternative was white. I was like that's not any better, and so if you don't know what I'm talking about, then you're not from the city or any city. Right any city. So, but because we had to wear uniforms, it was easier for me just to put on like the uniform, quote unquote. But I could be my most authentic self in my classes with my friends, and it was that year that I was in PE, finally, and I didn't want to be. And so I was in PE and I was taking Spanish too, for some reason, even though I already took it. No, I was taking Spanish one, and it cause I took Spanish two already and I aced it. But something with the credits, cause if you move around a lot, like I did, credits get like everything was messed up. And so I was taking Spanish one, which was super easy for me. Like my teacher was like, why are you here? I was like formality. She's like, ah, cool, Cause every time she would just give me something, I would just finish it out. I was like here you go. And then I was in PE and I didn't want to be there. But my friend, my best friend, she was doing the dance team. That's what she got into. As I left that sophomore year, she got into the dance team and so I felt FOMO and I wanted to go and like I introduced myself to the dance teacher Like y'all need like a manager or something Like I would gladly help out. And she's like, well, why don't you just come around and see if you can get out of PE and just come over here? And I was like okay. And then I told my people, my coach, that he's like nope, that sounds really good for you. So I should be thanking him, Thanking coach. I think it was coach Clemens. He was like A, b I. You don't need to be here, go there. I was like thanks sir and I got my backpack and just left and went to Miss Hatley Jamie Hatley and who's the dance instructor at that time and she I mentioned her cause she basically saw something in me and it just fuel I don't know, it's not that any of my other teachers haven't, but I distinctly remember her just owning who I was as a student and just said okay, go, and I've never been trusted to do that, even like in college, like I've never had that experience with any other teacher, and she just had so much unbridled faith in me to do something and I took her class and I was a pretty good dancer, according to the people. And then that's when I joined the Lassos and yes, do you know the Lassos.

Speaker 1: 25:43

I just see kick lines Okay.

Speaker 2: 25:45

Do you know the Lassos? Thomas Hurston Lassos.

Speaker 1: 25:47

I get the vibe because I've seen so many halftime shows at Texas football games.

Speaker 2: 25:55

So the Lassos are really famous, super famous. If you've ever seen, like the Time Magazine cover where there's like a girl in a hat with a Lassos up around her, that's Thomas Hurston Lassos. Cool Because the school originally was supposed to be a golf course and then because that was like the hoity-toity side of San Antonio back in the day. Can you imagine?

Speaker 1: 26:17

I can't.

Speaker 2: 26:18

No, I can't Because it is not anymore. It is not anymore, but it was back in the day, in the heyday. And then something about money, I don't know. They then switched it to a military school. So military took over that so that they could use that money to build a school for boys, and so it was a boys' school. But then people from the neighborhood started moving more and there was a place to put the girls. So now they put the lab boys and girls at that school and but they had to do something. But they weren't supposed to be cadets, so the girls did instead Lassos. So all the girls were Lassos and all the boys were the cadets, and there's a movie called High School that's based off of it and it was filmed on campus, so it's like black and white, it's old, but I loved it, but anyway. So I was a Lassos and the thing about that is because I was the third male Lassos to ever be in existence. I think the first one was Jacob and then Marcus and then me. But the Lassos Association took me in so willingly, like they got me pants special pants made. They got me a special belt that had a buckle with a Lassos on it. So I had my own uniform. That was kind of like the girls because they had the Rangerette uniform and, if you know, like quintessential dance team.

Speaker 1: 27:44

Essentially, you didn't have to wear many skirts.

Speaker 2: 27:46

No, I didn't.

Speaker 1: 27:48

It didn't make me sad. Yes, a little bit.

Speaker 2: 27:50

But I had my own costume and then I would only perform at pep rallies and several functions. I wouldn't perform at games because I wasn't technically on the team. I was kind of associated with it, but that year was that there was nowhere for me to hide it. I was a dancer and I was with it. That's when I think I had my. Did I have? No, did I date during that year? I don't think I did. I wouldn't date. I'd have people like me and tell me they like me and I go. That's nice, but I wouldn't date.

Speaker 1: 28:30

I had the high school experience of dating all the closeted kids. That's fun. Yeah, just if you're listening to this and you're in high school, don't date the closeted kids.

Speaker 2: 28:40

No, it's heartbreak, it's heartbreak.

Speaker 1: 28:42

It really is.

Speaker 2: 28:45

It really is. So I was focused on school because I didn't like I knew what my sexuality was and I knew I enjoyed and I liked boys, but like I didn't act upon it because I was like I'm a I'm an independent woman. I got stuff I need to do, so I was doing it. And then I also was like in lead of all the shows that year, which I was amazed at because I didn't think I was that good, but I think because I had that lead from the musical, I kind of got this like confidence, I guess, and I got so many leads in that we did. There was the San Antonio premiere of Little Women that year.

Speaker 1: 29:25

No way.

Speaker 2: 29:26

Yeah, and I played Lori Lawrence, of course. Yeah, that was wild. It was a wild show, hard music, and I remember I had such an emotional distress for that because I was singing these bass notes for this whole time and then Lori's pretty high and I was super like my song. I had, I like, cried to my, like Mr Brown. I was like I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I cannot comfortably hit these notes. And so then we went to the. I think at that time was the choir director. I don't remember his name, but it was a man I remember I think he might still be there. No, no, but anyways, I went to him and I was like I need help, I don't know what to do. So we transposed it a key down and then cut it in half so I didn't have to hit the high B flat. I was like great.

Speaker 1: 30:14

I mean the notes are hard, they are high regardless, like I was teaching that song to a high school senior gosh six years ago. Like and it's, it's high.

Speaker 2: 30:24

Yeah, like he's like up there with Sutton and I don't understand. But so that that was a wild experience. But also like a lot of backstage, like things like went down. You know, I remember it was the first time I told a freshman I was like you're gonna put my pants on because I had 15 seconds to get out of a three-piece suit and add again to another three-piece suit. I was like you're gonna like. The first time I told someone, okay, I'm buckle me, I'm just like I'm buckling my pants and I'm over here trying to get my top half off. And then somebody was doing that and like little fresh, I was like you're not doing it right. So that was fun. I remember that Quinton did that. He didn't. I scared the crap out of him because I was just junior. That was like sorry, quinton, he's fine, we're friends still, yeah. So then that happened. Then let me see him. Okay, then we go into summer. This is one shit gets real. When I told you like it goes. This is the epitome of why I teach, um. So I then had my first boyfriend. It didn't work out. I thought it would because he was also like a passers kid and I felt like he understood where I was coming from. He was out to his family. I was like that's so great, like there was just all these things that on paper were good. But then this is when kids, people, adults, even even if it looks good on paper, you have to vibe with someone. If you don't vibe with them, it's just it's not gonna work, no matter how on paper Well it looks. But we just we didn't vibe. But it was that summer where I was like dating him, just so much stress, trying to hide that. But also I was then Voted captain of the lassos. So I was captain and just the last portion there was like the dance captain, like the Colonel, then the lasso captain and then Something else. I just remembers Becky, felicia and me. We were the three main ones and then we went to officer camp. And when we went to officer camp that was the hardest. When I tell you my body Eight dancers are athletes, I just need to say that they are athletes 100% and over time my girls are like the boy says something about to my dance girls. I'm like you don't, have you tried you what they're doing? You can't. She has abs and you don't stop like they're doing work. But I went to camp that that summer. It was super intense, like you had to pick up a dance like in two minutes and you better do it right. Like it was super intense, crazy, but I learned so much. But I remember one of the dance coaches there Beautiful man, don't remember his name, but he was just one of those the coaches there that was teaching. He saw me doing like I was having this weird. I Couldn't find the balance of this feminine dancing because that's what it was right, like they just made. Dance teams are normally female and so I was having this weird. I couldn't find the balance between, like this feminine side and then also trying to keep it for lack of a better word like masculine, because I I Didn't have a problem doing the feminine dancing. But I also felt like I feel like I can maybe Change it a little bit. And so what he told me and I remember I'll never forget this he pulled me aside because he saw like I was struggling, I guess somehow, and he was like Look, you can dance, you can dance how you want to dance, and that's all he told me. And then from that point on it just clicked and like every time there was like a body roll. I would just switch it to like something else, would still be on beat and it'd look good Aesthetically but then still fit in within like, I guess, my comfortable ability. And my dance teacher Applauded me for like finding that because she didn't know either. She's like I've never had a boy before. It's like great, cool, and so I want to. I teach choreography for me. I always make sure, like my kids know that like you have this, like I'm gonna teach you this, but I also, in the back my head here's an alternative like I always make sure I have all that so they don't have to do the work. I've already done it for them, because I don't want them feeling like how I did or how I was. So now that's Ward, go to summer camp, summer theater camp. I just did dance camp, now I'm at theater camp, broke up with that other pastors, kid have this weird fling not fling because I'm now at the peak of my sexual Peeking and I want to you know, maybe have relationships with young men, and so this one was not the right one to do that with, and let's just say he was a little too. I Don't want to use the word no, I'll say this he was very intense, so intense that when he didn't take rejection, well, he threatened to out me to my family. No and so, and he was like Legitimate, like knew where I lived, all this stuff have had their number somehow, and and so, from that's and that, mind you, I'm going into senior year. Right, I've never been at a place longer than two years, so this was heaven to me. I'm captain of my lasso team. I'm the vice president of the theater club. I'm also part of the Hain Society, which is fraternity for men on campus.

Speaker 1: 36:10

Thomas Jefferson and I were doing cabaret, like Y'all San Antonio High School Theater back in the day. So freaking progressive, you're doing cabaret.

Speaker 2: 36:26

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: 36:27

Like I had parents at the high school. I just love to her, like I did cabaret in 1980, something, something I was like at this high school yeah, at this high school if. I even said the word right. Nowadays.

Speaker 2: 36:41

It was wild that he wanted to do it, mr Brown wanted to do it, and I should remember he was editing it. I remember he was, he had to edit it, obviously, and I should remember him like seeing him type t-rex hands and it pissed me off and I was like just move out the way and let me do it. And so I did it for him to get it done faster. I just remember that. And then, but so we were doing, gonna do cabaret, so like we had all that ready to go, but because of this person didn't make me feel safe and I felt like I had no choice. I had to tell my sister about it and that was the first family member I told. Then, when I told my sister about it, she told my parents about it and it just all snowballed from there. So after that this is still summer, right first day of school happens I don't go. My dance teacher is texting me. Why aren't you here at practice? My theater directors it's texting me. He's like dude, like are you okay? And I have to be quiet and I go there my, my family and my parents. They're solution. My dad had a church in Austin so we had to drive every Sunday to Austin to go and for him to preach at that church and Then come back to where we lived. So he finally got an actual. It was like a smaller church, so he's got a bigger church position in far Texas and so he was gonna be there by himself because he did not want to uproot my mom again, because my mom has to, like you know, retire and not like be moving from job to job. And so the agreement was I would go and live Down in the valley with my dad my senior year and Just leave everything behind and go through therapy. No, when I was down there and so that like it's like, it's like meldramatic as it sounds, like everything just started like melting away around you and like everything went from color to black and white, just to black. Sure, it was just. It was one of the lowest points in my life, and so I had to tell my, my lassos, I had to tell my dance crew like what was happening. My best friend didn't know anything that was happening, and so she was in the shoes on team. It's like she was just balling and I couldn't, like there was nothing to do because I had to leave that day. And then my kid, like my other team, other captains next to me, were just like like like I didn't tell anyone, like what was happening. And then the end of the day I went to go tell everybody and the theater which was a big deal because I was the male, the lead, quote-unquote, and I remember that was really hard. And then, after everyone left, I was able to talk with Mr Brown and I will never forget this and this is why I am the way I am with my students this day. He said I wish you would have just talked to me and he was bawling and I didn't understand why. I was like why are you crying? He's like you understand how much I love you and I didn't click to me that my teachers cared about me.

Speaker 1: 40:05

I think that's so interesting because I feel like there are so many students nowadays who don't realize that also. But, like I mean, I have four children and 120 others, there's a deep rooted place in my heart for all of my students, regardless of how frustrating they may be.

Speaker 2: 40:27

Oh, yeah, even the ones that you want to just sometimes throw a shoe at, like you still love them. But I, as a student and a queer student, I didn't understand that my teacher cared for me, and it wasn't until that moment when I saw this poor man break down. He's like you understand, like how special you are. He flat out told me, he's like I built the whole season around you. That's why we're doing cap array, that's why we're doing uh forgot what they were gonna do, white buffalo. I think we're gonna do white buffalo for one act. And it wasn't that moment he's like. He's like he told me I wish you would have come and talked to me or felt like you could have come and talked to me because I would have helped you. None of this would have happened and that, like I don't know. To this day I think about that moment. I'm like I didn't know that I could lean on my teachers like that I always kept, I guess because it, because I kept moving from place to place to place, like it for me I had never dawned on me that that was a another source of support I could go to, and so it it. It helped inform me, as a teacher, like why I wanted to be a teacher. Um, um, so senior year I'm at this new place, I just go through the motions, I don't say anything about my sexuality to anyone. So I go back right into that closet and just kind of go through it because I want to get out that that image of me having my own apartment was still in the back of my head. So I made sure I took all I got on my straight A's. I took my senior year, so I took the classes like I didn't need to take, but I took. I took French for fun, I took an AV class that was actually really good at. And then, um, I did try to, though twice I went to go um talk to the dance teacher just to like rehearse with them so I can keep up my, my technique, um, but I went twice to her office and she was never there. So I took that as a sign of me, like I guess this is me not doing that. But I do remember my parents told me that they did not want me to do theater when I moved there to um FAR, it was PSJA North. Anybody who knows um Texas schools, they dominate always in design and when I play, but I, I put my foot down. I was like, no, this is the one thing that I need if you want me to live. And I was that dramatic about it, but it was. It was truth that, like I wanted to be in the place where I knew in my heart I could be my most authentic self, even though it wasn't truly my most authentic self, because I was very reserved that year. Um, and it wasn't till, like towards the end that I started telling people like you know this already, I don't have to tell you this, but this is who I am. And like I slowly started coming out because, again, the same idea I had people at the church who were there and like I had to keep this, this facade of this pastor's kid, um, that had nothing wrong with him there. And so, um, and then, through the therapy sessions, like I would just, I'm not dumb, I would just say what, whatever they needed me to say, um, to get through it. Um, and so when I graduated, I made sure I got like, the best grade on the SAT. Like I was not great, but I tried. Um, but when I auditioned and I went to Southwestern University where I um, ended up going to school like I was super excited my my senior year, like the day of graduation. I had my bags packed, I had everything ready to go, like let's get this U-Haul, I'm ready to get out of here and um, so that was kind of like my my course and walk, because I, I don't know, it was that pivotal, that pivotal moment with Mr Brown and that kind of cued me in like I don't want, I don't want somebody to go through what I went through and I would love to help because in college I got thrown around a lot because of, you know, race and I didn't realize how messed up theater was. And we're getting better. Not a lot, but we're slowly better, at least we know. No one talked about it, um, I don't want to talk about too much about college, but literally, like I can just tell you I was playing a whole bunch of kids and like didn't matter the race, I just was on stage so I was having fun, um, so I played all a lot of kids because I had a very kid face, um, and then, um, my last year, and then they kind of, then I kind of moved into into, like, directing world because I knew I wanted to be a high school teacher. So I moved into the directing world of college and, um, I took all the directing courses and was able to direct some of the shows on the season, um, which was a great opportunity that not many people get for their undergrad. Um, but I remember my senior year comes by and they're like we have the perfect role for you. We went you back on stage one last time because it was like always like the last hurrah, um, and I was like, okay, great, cool. And they're like, they're like you're gonna play an Italian merchant and I go okay, and so I played. Um, oh my god, what was his name? it was in heart, uh, heartbreak house, george Bernalscherall. So I had to learn an accent, but I was, I had to learn an Italian accent. That had lived in England for X of years, so it was very, it was very interesting, um, and now I just want to say this uh, bless her, but our vocal professor, who, um, taught us our dialect when I like, when we were talking, coaching, and she was coaching me through it, she said hey, do you know that you have like some Spanish patterns and the way you speak straight face, straight face, told me that. And I go, you don't say I did not know that for all of you listening out there.

Speaker 1: 46:49

Let's, let's explain. Who are you, aime, I'm.

Speaker 2: 46:52

Mexican America. The Z at the end of my name kind of says it all like who Amir is. Um, I'm also quite tan, just so you know. Like it was just that I say that because that kind of encompasses, kind of like wow why you played an Italian right also, but like, also, like I never wanted my kids to ever feel that way, um, because it wasn't again until, like, we graduated, and the means for my other friends, like we're talking about our experiences. And it was until I got um, and I worked at East Central High School with Maggie Booze and a phenomenal um theater director, an educator oh, she's amazing, um, but we both went to Southwestern and did the same program. She was just four years ahead of me, so literally when she graduated, I went in and so we were just discussing our, our experiences there and we were just like these are not the same experiences. And so then that got us talking, like to our other friends who went, uh, the program and it was just like, it was just so mind-opening how, by the way, you look, how much you weigh, what your race is, how much that dictates on how your education goes, and then from that, that dictates how like your career goes, unfortunately, in the in the theater world. And so I, as an educator, picking up on all that, like how I was treated, how I didn't know I had a support system. I wanted to make sure, um, and you shared it not too long ago I wanted to make sure I was the person that I needed, and I always make sure that my kids know how much I care about them and how much worth they are. Because I did not get that and I will tell it to them over and over again until they don't believe me, because that's how they are right. They're fickle because they're teenagers, but that's ultimately what kind of drove me to being an educator. Even if I wasn't teaching theater which I don't know what else I would teach, because I'm not good at anything else.

Speaker 1: 49:06

I was gonna be band director and then a choir director and now I'm a theater director and I think it worked out yeah, for you.

Speaker 2: 49:13

Yeah, I'm, I love that for you, but for me, uh, I did a alternative teaching program and they're like, you can probably do french, and I was like no, thank you, I'm okay. They're like you sure like getting more than one. Like no, no, no, no, no, no, I'm just gonna, it's gonna do theater. Um, that's about it. Um, uh, but that's ultimately why I wanted to my journey as a queer youth and kind of how I felt this like, need. I didn't feel fully comfortable and so when I became a teacher, I made sure I, my students, felt fully comfortable, no matter where they were, where there's some districts where I didn't feel comfortable absolutely so let's talk about that for a second.

Speaker 1: 49:58

Was it students, parents, administration, like where did that?

Speaker 2: 50:03

discomfort come from it was coming. I think it was overall community. Um. My first gig was at Lavernia high school, um which is like south of San Antonio, little south San Antonio, um and um. I interviewed there when I was still in college. Like it was a summer of my senior year I was working um this summer camp called Salis Camp and um I was SMing all those shows and took a day off stage managing yes, stage manager, I'm pretty good, um, and I was stage managing and I went to go interview and I interviewed with the superintendent and so the superintendent told me like after we talked, and all that good stuff, the superintendent said, well, looks like you got the job, but if I were you, I would grow a beard because you're too pretty oh, but you're still so pretty with the beard, thank you, to which I said thank you. Like this is 21 year old little Abe, like what the heck was that? And so that comment kind of like made me feel icky, but also it like I was like I don't know if I should be working here, but like as an alt cert, like no one's gonna hire you yeah, I also did alt cert, so I get that. So yeah, now they're accepting alt certs everywhere because there's a teacher shortage. Did you know there's a teacher shortage out there, folks? just so you guys pay teachers more so you know, people, what we do is hard, um so, uh. So I worked there my first year but that, um, there's rule, very rule, kids, um, not many kids who look like me. So it was a very um culture shock for me. A little bit, um, from the different, even even though I moved around a lot, like the places I were at still kind of reflected like what I look like and um and such, and so that was, I don't know. There's always like I know this homeboy boy kind of vibe when we'd have like um teacher meetings and stuff and like from admin, like I, I don't know, I always felt like I had to hold my breath. Um, it was the first, I mean always the first year. You always dress sticky, your best like a teacher and I always made sure I did um with like the tie and everything, um, but that that I didn't outright say anything because I didn't feel comfortable. I just there's a vibe and I don't know how else to say it like it's like women go through it every single day, like they are the best at vibing a room because they have to feel safe, because unfortunately, that's how society has put it against women and so I think that's also very similar to how gay people or queer people adapt to a room like you. You quickly look around to see if this is a safe space for me, and it was not a safe space and I think it's just, of course, student comments, you know, like redirecting, like what they said um, because no one did before. It sounded like, and because no one did before. That's what like raised my alarm, like, oh, it's okay here, that's not okay. Um, I did my co-worker um obviously knew like I wasn't gonna like say anything to him, and he didn't say not to come out, he just said do what you feel is comfortable, which, if you read between lines, don't yeah that that you have to level your own comfortability.

Speaker 1: 53:50

Crap is kind of it's just outdated. Just tell me what it is now like. Tell me if it's.

Speaker 2: 53:57

And it was so I don't know. It's so bizarre because, like kids would ask if I'm dating because that's what they're, you're the most interesting thing in the room, and they're always gonna ask you that and I would. I would always redirect it. I was like why are you so worried about me when you should be worried about your girl? Like, it's just like stuff like that, like you know, like, but not having to outright say it, I should remember the one person that did like just flat out, just knew, uh was the dance teacher, because she was right next door to me, um, and she taught English as well and because I had a dance background, I helped like coach some of the girls and like went in to go yell at them because they would sickle their foot on their kick and all that good stuff, um, but I just remember like it just came out like not so long and she was like okay, and then that was that. That was that um, and then I would. I left after that first year because I couldn't think about doing it again, um, even though I did fall in love with those kids, as you do, because you can't help it, and I fell in love with that community, but I just didn't feel safe there. Um, I don't know if any other click queer educators get this weird like feeling when they have to deal with coaches. Like I get this like weird. I think like it's carcans back to like high school times where I don't feel safe around them and it's taken me a lot to kind of humanize the coaches and remind myself that they are not your tormentors back in the day, like but I like, I remember as much as they might look like them. Right, that's, that's the hard part. You have to disassociate because the coaches where I'm at right now like I love them to death and like we can do side-eye and just like you know, like communicate without communicating because those meetings are harsh, but uh, but like when I was first starting out, that was one of the biggest issues I had because I felt didn't feel comfortable. And when they had us make us do like those, those icebreaker games with these other people, I'm like I just want to stick with the fine arts people. Okay, thanks, um, um, but yeah, no, that was kind of a tangent, but like um. So then I went to Corsicana yes, I did. I went to Corsicana to work with, uh, the Gloria Mclucky um, who is a legend, uh, theater educator legend, been in the state like 14 times. All that good stuff um.

Speaker 1: 56:30

For those of you not in Texas, one act plays a huge deal here Competitive theater go to state everyone.

Speaker 2: 56:39

It's like the same energy that people put into football. They put it into theater. It's pretty wild.

Speaker 1: 56:44

Kind of.

Speaker 2: 56:46

Of course there's nuances, but for those who don't know, it's that like it's the, it's the Super Bowl.

Speaker 1: 56:52

It's a five. Yes, it is it's very competitive and very sought after.

Speaker 2: 56:57

Yes, yes, um, but she, uh, she asked me to go work with her, um, and so when Gloria asks you to do something, you do it, and so I said yes, absolutely. So I moved away from my family. I went to Corsicana, texas, um, where the vibe also wasn't there, um, and it wasn't, and it wasn't that I didn't feel. I didn't feel safe at school because my students I loved those kids. Those kids just needed someone to love them and I was willing to do that for them. Um, one of my funniest student interactions came from Corsicana and I always say it to this day um, we'll talk about it later, maybe, um, but the main point was, like, I just, I think the community there is where I didn't feel safe. Um, love the kids, love my admin, loved um my co-workers, like it was great school to work at, it's just the community. I didn't feel okay and because, like, when you would go on those dating apps, there isn't no one around for like hundreds of miles, because all the gays went to Dallas or Waco, nobody was in Corsicana, um, and so having to drive so long to open myself up for that part of you, it gets taxing, and so after a year, um, I had to call it and also because my um mom was going to be officially living by herself in San Antonio and I didn't feel comfortable with that. I just felt like I needed to go back home because my dad was still going to be at a different church in the Dallas, so the family was still apart. I was like I can't do that or I don't feel comfortable doing that. Um, so, um, I put in my resignation and I remember, um, the principal just goes no, thank you. I was like no, no, no, you have to take this because, um, I guess at that point I didn't know my worth, that's a teacher or educator, what I was doing, um, but he was like you're too good, like well, got replaced you. I was like I know I'm sorry, but I have to do this for me. Um, and I loved working with Gloria. Um, I think it's Minor Wisdom. Another podcast yes, minor, wisdom, blake, minor, where you went, yeah um, it's so funny because when Gloria, when he interviewed Gloria, she mentions me and I recorded it and sent it to her and I was like girl, she was like it was the best job. My coworker handled everything. And then he laughed at me. I was like I was like it was like it was fun. So it was so fun and it was like you entered me. Потому, it was kids YouTube. That was so like you love to watch other kids, like me. Um, everyone was super into that. And then Stan Newton, like everybody was like it was mood. They just told me like I was very, very excited. So I felt like �elo, that was like mode and have dared you. It was mood, um, and so from, uh, so moving. Then I moved to most comfortable, if that makes sense as an educator. I never outright and I think it was by choice, I don't know if I had to this point, but I never outright came out to my kids and said I'm gay. I was just my most authentic self and let them feel the blanks, because I will never forget, because Larry Larry, who is now working at Tom Stepherson, the full circle moment that we had earlier he, I will never forget this, it was his senior year. What's his senior year? I think it was his senior year, no, junior. But he was in theater because he liked it, but he wasn't like a theater kid until like that next year. But he was like they got on the subject of like, of how people see theater people, and like then the conversation and like how, like kids talk in the morning or after school, they're just in your space because they feel comfortable there, so they're just talking and so they're talking. And then they got to talking about like men in theater and he goes yeah, I don't know why everyone thinks like guys in theater are gay and Larry's not gay, like he's the straightest. But he was like, yeah, because you look at Mr Amir's, he's a good looking man, he has this shit together and he's a Hispanic, like why are people talking shit? And then my girl, my girl, like everyone, just kind of like stopped. Oh honey, they kind of like stopped. And then we all just like Larry hun, I love the energy you're giving, I love where this is coming from, but yeah, I'm gay. He's like, oh, I busted that little boy's world in that moment, his perceptions.

Speaker 1: 1:02:12

This is what a gay person could be.

Speaker 2: 1:02:15

Yeah, it was very endearing. I don't know if he remembers that, but it was the funniest thing that's ever happened. I'll send him the podcast.

Speaker 1: 1:02:25

Send it to Rekha too. I'll meet.

Speaker 2: 1:02:26

Jefferson, I would love that. Yeah, he'll probably. I don't know if he'll remember it, but it definitely happened because I remember me and my co-worker, maggie, always talked about it afterwards, like remember that time you thought Kyo, he's like I know now. I was like obviously, but that was like the first time I had to be like because he was like, it was so supportive, it was like coming from a place of passion.

Speaker 1: 1:02:48

I'm like honey bun, no, but even like, but even to this day I still don't outright say it, like I don't, I let them kind of figure it out, or the kids like I love that idea because I think that the necessity of coming out is in the past and so I really do think like, to some extent I come out in the sense that I'm like my husband and I have four kids and I'll leave it at that and I won't say anything else about my relationship. But the fact that I said my husband and I have four kids is like my coming out. But it's really just me telling you about myself and that having to say I'm gay. Yeah, I'm a gay. Nice to meet you. I'm a gay.

Speaker 2: 1:03:37

Hi gay yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:03:40

Or like, and I suppose like now with the different pedagogical or pedagogical tips that we have with regard to working and creating brave and safe spaces for students, introducing pronouns and whatnot, because I'm non-binary. I guess that's another element of coming out. But really the necessity to say I am this person and I like the same sex or gender or whatever, I think is honestly just a way of the past and we're getting to a point where people can just be themselves.

Speaker 2: 1:04:13

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:04:14

And you can fill in the blank.

Speaker 2: 1:04:17

Yeah, I think that that was the intention always Like I didn't. It wasn't the most interesting thing about me.

Speaker 1: 1:04:24

That's fair.

Speaker 2: 1:04:26

Like, that's not what you should be focusing on.

Speaker 1: 1:04:28

Right, and that's why I started with like I'm a dad Also not interesting, but there it is, and I guess that makes me like I'm a safe person, because I'm like a boring married person and so like I don't get those questions like who are you dating? What's your thing? How's your girlfriend? Yeah, nope, I have had students be like here. I made this for your wife and I would have to be like, oh, you must have been absent, but you miss that day. It's all right, I'll put it in the homework. I love this conversation. We are running out of time, so I have one final question for you, ready, yeah, what advice would you give to a young queer person who's considering education? Like, what advice do you have for them about that idea of being your authentic self?

Speaker 2: 1:05:29

I think they need ultimately never change, for anyone Like that should never happen, especially in a workplace. To do formidable and amazing work, you have to feel comfortable and when you're starting out, just make sure you know. I wish I would have known to be a little bit more braver, right? So I didn't have to feel so scared in those first two places that I worked at. Don't be afraid to vouch for yourself. And also, if you're in that interview, I don't want to say put all cards on the table, but yeah, put all cards on the table, because if your admin reacts a certain way, then that's going to tell you how your experience is going to be Like. When I went to my interview at Davenport, I had a Mickey Mouse rainbow key chain on my satchel and then I had a dinosaur tie, obviously, and I just said hey, as I walked in I was like what's up? How y'all? Because the kids are going to be receptive to that. Will some have issues I haven't really had any, at least who have told me, or have parents who've complained about me, but I think it's because I put my work ahead of what my sexuality is. Again, that's not the most important interesting thing about me. I'm a teacher. I'm going to teach you how to drill and use power tools safely. I'm going to teach you how to box, step and fill up change. I'm going to teach you all this other stuff. You should be focusing on what I'm doing, and I guess it's that professional also balance as well. So a young educator who identifies as queer is wanting to find a job. I would say just don't be afraid to be brave and vow through yourself, especially when you're finding those jobs, especially when you first start out. It's really hard. It's really hard. You have to go to those smaller districts first, unless you know people, to get your feet running, but really throw yourself into the work that you're doing, but also into those kids, Because once you're the most authentic to yourself with your kids I don't know about you, but they always come back, even the annoying ones, and I've talked about it. I read a lot of my kids. That's how I communicate, because I am a gay man, and so I read them a lot and they keep coming back for more reads on them and I'm like, no, that's not what the intention was that. But they love it because someone's giving them an attention and validating them, and so, even though some of the kids get so annoying, they just want the love. So if you give them the most authentic self for you, they're going to also reciprocate that and most authentic self for them, because a lot of the times they just need that. They just need someone to be there and love them. Yeah, that's what I would say.

Speaker 1: 1:09:02

I love that. I think especially thank you for bringing up the interview, because I think there's so many people who are afraid to say things in an interview. Even my most recent interview, there's always that question. That's like there's two questions that come to mind why did you leave and do you have any questions about the job? And I think those are great opportunities for you, as you're coming into a teaching position, to be very clear about your needs. We're talking about therapy.

Speaker 2: 1:09:34

We've got to be clear about our needs.

Speaker 1: 1:09:35

We've got to be clear about our boundaries, and you can do that in a job interview setting.

Speaker 2: 1:09:40

I think I did ask that in this other one, because I always have questions because I'm that person. But I was like, OK, I identify as part of the LGBTQ. How does this community feel about this? And that's how I worded it, because I wanted to loop them into it as well. And then I see if I always use it to see what the reaction is. Is there a volatile twitch or something? I don't want to be a part of that or I'm going to stay away from that person. But it was my experience in that last interview I had. I was positive. Nothing came away. I have several this will be the first time. At the current school I'm at, I have several other LGBTQ co-workers. It's pretty amazing. I didn't realize how much I needed that, because it was a nice support and nice when you can just bring up something that only our community knows. No one bats an eye and it's just so refreshing for that.

Speaker 1: 1:10:41

Absolutely, and sometimes things are downplayed because people aren't aware of them, because they're in this community. They're like oh that's not that big of a deal. It'll be fine and I'm like it'll not be fine.

Speaker 2: 1:10:50

Yeah, I don't think you understand, and so yeah no, but that's also something to look forward to as well. If we are our most authentic self, it helps not only our students but the other fellow co-workers that are there, which helps the ultimate environment that we are teaching these students in, and then also the community as a whole.

Speaker 1: 1:11:12

I agree. Hey, thank you so much for joining me on this podcast. I really appreciate it and to hear your story, I learned so much about you and I love it. So just thank you again for taking your time to speak with me and for sharing your story with a wider audience.

Speaker 2: 1:11:26

Yeah, I don't know if I actually answered your questions, but yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:11:30

Who needs questions?

Speaker 2: 1:11:32

Who needs agendas or bullet points?

Speaker 1: 1:11:35

And thank you all at home for joining us today. Have a great day. Have a great day. Have a great day.