Shaping Safe Spaces for Students of All Genders and Sexualities

Bryan (he/they): 0:27

Teaching While Queer is a podcast for 2S LGBTQIA+ educational professionals to share their experiences in academia. Hi, I'm your host, Bryan Stanton, a theater pedagogy and educator in New York City, and my goal is to share stories from around the world from 2S LGBTQIA+ educators. I hope you enjoy Teaching While Queer. Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Teaching While Queer. I am your host, Bryan Stanton. My pronouns are he they? Why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself to everyone?

Anonymous (she/they): 1:03

All right. Well, first of all, thank you for having me. I'm a school counselor and I run elementary level GSA's. Basically, I provide resources for other school counselors and how to navigate supporting queer kids all over the country. So just a little fun little add on there.

Bryan (he/they): 1:23

That's really awesome. I think we might dive into that a little bit, because now I've got my interest speak, you know, but you're typical with an episode is that we'll start talking by going on a trip back in time. So journey with me, if you will. What was it like for you? Well, first and foremost, like, how do you identify within the community?

Anonymous (she/they): 1:46

Oh my gosh, I totally forgot that part. It's like the most important part. So I use she, they pronouns and I consider myself I usually just use queer as my term, but then, as somebody is really asking, I identify specifically as pan and just gender fluid. But you know, depends on what time it is to figure out where I'm feeling.

Bryan (he/they): 2:11

Honestly, that's what I love about fluidity right Is because it's like. What do I feel in the moment? I am a huge fan of like Rick Reyer in books. He for those who don't know and don't read young adult or young yeah, young adult books he is the writer of like Percy Jackson and the Olympians. Fun fact, he graduated from a high school that I used to teach at, so that was kind of cool. I kept trying to get him to come back and like to honor him, because you know, percy Jackson is a musical now, so that's a theater contribution. But they, his books, deal with like demigods, and there's a whole Norse series that deals with the Norse gods, and a child of low key is gender fluid their name is Alex and like we'll literally just change gender physically throughout the story and people can tell what kind of mood they're in just based off of like what gender they're sporting the day or whether or not they're more of an androgynous look. And I just think it's like it's so cool one to just remind everybody that stories of gender fluidity have existed since the Vikings and then also to see how that could play out now, because I think that with the way that fashion is going in with how people are being so bold with their statements. Like you can kind of choose your gender the day that you, you know. I want to be more fluid today. I want to be more feminine today, I want to be more masculine today and you have the ability to depending that you have the finances, because you know, fashion is money Also, that's for sure. Hey, thanks for going on that tangent with me about young. You know young adult books. So now we're going to take a real trip back in time. What was it like for you as a queer student?

Anonymous (she/they): 4:11

So it's actually pretty wild. I was simply not a queer youth. Throughout my K through 12 education I was actually one of the queer late bloomers For many reasons. Where I grew up, there was a huge lack of representation and diversity as a whole, but especially around queerness. There was actually one person in my life who was gay, but he was not in my life as an adult For me to have a solid relationship with. It was actually just one of my neighbors, uncles, who I always thought just had a really interesting vibe, unlike really unlike anyone that I had been around before. So this person never actually even talked about being gay or brought any partners around to family parties that I was always attending. But I wonder now, if he had, if I would even have connected. You know that he would have been in the queer community. Because I didn't even know the queer community existed in general. So because orientation was lacking so hard, I just didn't know. I just didn't know. So I wasn't a queer youth. I didn't come out until I was 19. And even then what I understood to be queer like around my queer identity was nothing compared to what it is now. But I do have a pretty funny story to explain exactly what I mean about the lack of representation. And then I was actually. It was so embarrassing, I was a giant homophobe.

Bryan (he/they): 5:54

No, so you're not the first person to say that here. Like this, folks will look back and be like, wow, I had a lot of like searching within myself to do because, yeah, so you not uncommon, we're a giant homophobe before you know, having your own kind of identity journey.

Anonymous (she/they): 6:16

Oh yeah, it was a lot. So, basically, you know at the time the words to use where it wasn't really queer, even though that's my, my most commonly used word but the use of the word gay or lesbian was pretty typical and so, of course, use in negative connotation. So the funny story is, in 2011, when I was a sophomore or a junior in high school, I had posted on Facebook something to the effect of ew. I saw two lesbians making out this morning. I'm honestly or I honestly don't see how that could be hot. Okay, that was the post. And fast forward to 2016, when I'm dating my now fiance, kira, so obviously openly gay. You know how Facebook notifies you when you have like a memory of a post.

Bryan (he/they): 7:11

Yeah, it's the worst feature ever.

Anonymous (she/they): 7:15

I. It was a shock. A shock, yeah. So I basically open the post and I'm laughing so hard because, of course, my so so deeply closeted self would have never began to think that I would was queer. So then, because I love to call myself out and I think calling yourself out in a funny way is the best way to not be embarrassed about anything is I reposted it, basically said jokes on me, and so everybody in my life was like oh my God, I cannot even believe that you so willingly posted that and then reposted it, being like oops. So you know it's like, while that is obviously hilarious, it also speaks to how the lack of representation for so many communities can lead to being enmeshed in the viewpoints of those around you, which is kind of scary to think about but plays into it.

Bryan (he/they): 8:18

Do you mind me asking where you grew?

Anonymous (she/they): 8:20

up. So I grew up in the Valley right outside of LA, in Seamy Valley, California, and it's actually the place where the Rodney King trials were and that's where how a lot of people know of it and I think that kind of speaks to the vibe just with that.

Bryan (he/they): 8:40

I remember the Rodney King riots because my mom worked in downtown LA and so like I would go work with her and I just remember, like fire, it was a wild time. But I know exactly where you're talking about because I also grew up in the Los Angeles area. It's also the place where, like when you know Cher and Clueless is talking about being in the Valley, they're generally talking about there. Yeah, the 90s were wild folks, not that you have a lot of memory of them, I'm just doing some math here.

Anonymous (she/they): 9:23

I was born in 94. So I was a whole ass baby.

Bryan (he/they): 9:28

Yeah, you're just younger than my younger, my youngest brother, so I get that vibe. So you were a late bloomer to your own kind of understanding of your career identity. And how do you think that plays out in your being a part of the educational community and working with kids now?

Anonymous (she/they): 9:51

You know, I personally think that the reason why I am currently so out and proud and, you know, really encouraging my kids to be too, is because of that lack of representation and knowing that I literally was a homophobe because of my environment, and so then it helps me be like, if I just provide a little bit, then they can have, you know, the fluidity to check things out if it speaks to them, and I think that's I don't know, I think that's the same for so many communities too. I actually have a really good friend who she started a black student union for basically the same reason. She wasn't as connected to her culture as she would have liked to have been as a youth and then later on was like, maybe I wasn't, but they don't have to have the same experience, and so it's, I think. I think a lot of people experience that and then hopefully have the perseverance to then try to make it different for other people.

Bryan (he/they): 10:53

Yeah, definitely take some perseverance because it can be hard. Yeah, I really can. Especially being in the spotlight like like for some reason, like just being a GSA sponsor put you under a spotlight, like there's something immoral about just hosting this club and it there's nothing immoral about, I mean, a lot of times it's just camaraderie.

Anonymous (she/they): 11:21

Yeah, I will say my GSA is. I like to tell people it's not a typical GSA. Oh cool, tell me more. It's not a special space, so there's a lot to it, though.

Bryan (he/they): 11:36

I love it, though. So you're doing GSAs with elementary kids. So what does that look like? Because I've only experienced at the high school level.

Anonymous (she/they): 11:44

Yeah, so, because so I'm a school counselor and last year I was part-time at two schools so I had GSAs at both. This year I'm only at one, but it basically looks like for one of the schools I had an hour after school with them, like there's parent permission slips, all the things. All the parents were fully aware it was happening and that I had them for that amount of time, and so you could either do that route. But it's kind of hard to be able to get all the kids you'd like to give access to if it's after school, because you know sports pick up all the things. So then at my other school I did it as a lunch bunch, which is not nearly enough time. So that's kind of the con of it. But you also give more access to kids because then everybody has the option versus just the kids that I can attend after school.

Bryan (he/they): 12:40

Yeah, absolutely. I think that utilizing a lunch bunch, especially once I kind of learned about that, is such a smart thing. And in high school you know you might have the kids who stick around in your class or whatever, but like the way that things are scheduled there's no way to be effectively running something unless you are lucky enough to work at high school that has a single lunch. But when you are at a larger school and they've got like two or three lunches, it can get pretty wild to try to do anything during that lunch time. So the fact that you can hold that space is fantastic.

Anonymous (she/they): 13:19

Yeah, I mean it is a three lunch school and so it we only have. Let's see, at the school I'm currently at, we have about 400 students and so they do the different lunches based on grades, obviously. So for the fourth graders they have one group and then the fifth graders are their own other group, and it's so funny because it's usually the fourth graders that are actually the ones that are like these are the queerest of queer kids, I don't know what the? fourth grade. Fourth grade is gnarly, but fourth grade, oh my God. These kids like held the group even for fifth graders last year, because they do so do you want me to kind of explain some of the things we do?

Bryan (he/they): 14:03

Yeah, absolutely.

Anonymous (she/they): 14:05

For sure. Okay, so the kids sign up for presentation days and so basically, I don't know if it's just my group of kids, but these kids love to make slide decks more than anything in the world, and so we'll usually have about 25 minutes in GSA a week, which is so sad to even say it out loud, 25 minutes as a joke. But I'll take what I can get, and so they'll sign up to do presentations about things. They can be queer related, it can be. You know there's been examples of presentations explaining what all the pride flag meet, what they mean, or you know what Stonewall was and all these different things, or they will then create presentations completely off the cuff. I've had one student made the wildest presentation about Furby's last year, which was like they feel inherently queer, there's something about them and, um, no, just like truly whatever they want. And so I mean, you know, taylor Swift is the thing right now, and so last week we had a presentation about Taylor Swift and it was very paid attention to. They were very excited. So good. But then on days that they're not doing presentations, I'm then leading the group and so we tend to have really like in-depth conversations about things. That, because I was not a self-aware queer youth yet, I try to give them the chance to have real-life conversations about basically how to keep themselves safe while also being completely proud of who they are, which is exactly what I want. But I also want them to be safe, and so we'll have some pretty I call them sit-down discussions, meaning that I also am sitting on the floor so they know I'm leveling with them. And it's really cool because we also discuss like current events and stuff and laws and legislations going on in other states so they can actually conceptualize like having a group like this is a huge deal compared to other places that just don't have open access to stuff like that, and so it's both about building community and about building safety and knowledge around, like the community that you come from.

Bryan (he/they): 16:32

Yeah, absolutely, and I think that's incredibly important than the fact that you're teaching a skill that is about. It's about respecting themselves. So it's really about, like, respecting yourself in a way that you can be authentic to yourself but also respect your own safety, because I think that's something that, like nowadays, self-awareness is a lot harder, I think, to explain, even with the onslaught of social media, and, like the image that you give across it's different than actually being aware of yourself, and so I think that's a valuable skill set that you're giving of this, like I need to be true to myself, but I also need to be safe, because, especially right now, it is a trying time for that, and I'm not it's not just teachers and adults who are being attacked like children have to go above, you know, in front of legislators and children. Some of my guests have had, like their students targeted by groups online and whatnot. So it's like having that kind of understanding of how to keep yourself safe is so important and I feel like it should be some conversation we have with literally everyone. But it's not there in the curriculum, it's not there in social emotional learning, which is a hateful buzzword right now. It's wild right. We should teach kids how to regulate their emotions and understand their emotions? No, that's indoctrination. Okay, thanks.

Anonymous (she/they): 18:17

It's wild because as a school counselor, that's literally my whole shtick. Like is PPL, and so when I hear stuff like that, I'm like you guys are fighting people being inclusive, that's what we're fighting about.

Bryan (he/they): 18:35

Interesting. Okay, we're fighting about, like, being inclusive. We're fighting about expression Like we don't want you teaching our kids to express themselves. Okay, it's weird, they're gonna do it.

Anonymous (she/they): 18:53

They're gonna rebel. They're gonna rebel and do it if we don't do it like this.

Bryan (he/they): 18:57

So yeah, it's gonna come out a lot worse if we don't teach them how to express themselves right, Exactly. But you know we live in weird times. So, being that you work with elementary schools, do you have to deal with queer phobia or anti queer behavior, Whether it's from students or like?

Anonymous (she/they): 19:25

you know at with the kids. Okay, how do I say this? The school that I was at last year, that GSA we got, we got attacked pretty, pretty bad by like conservative right wing media and it was so bad that the FBI and Homeland Security got involved. But that was kind of a one off situation. It felt like it was over planning a prison and based long story short it's. It's something I talk about a lot and then also found myself getting very like oh. I don't want that to be my story kind of thing, but it very much was a situation that I think a lot of GSAs can learn from, because I thought, being in Portland, that Portland being such a safe haven for queer people, I never thought that anything negative would happen about planning a pride event. In general, just giving Portland is so queer, so queer. And so we start, me and my friend Elliot. We were planning the pride event to be hosted by your GSA and it was going to be after school and optional. Nobody was forced to go. And a parent had actually shared the flyer with a an Instagram account and basically said please get this shut down. And the Instagram account then decided to open commentary about it and just kind of snowballed from there. It just went to Instagram, to then local radio hosts, then local news, then national news and then world like news, and so it. It led to some really horrible things happening, especially when you think about it revolving around a student group of nine, 10, and 11 year olds. It it was horrible actually, but it was one of those things that I I'm glad that I experienced it this early on in my career, because now I know what I need to do to protect myself and my kids for the future, because my open vulnerability really bit me in the butt and now I know I have to be a little bit safer. That are not safer, just more, more private, I guess, about these things, which is horrible. I don't want to have to be private. These kids deserve to celebrate themselves, but people put us in a situation that we didn't feel like we could be, and so that's the reality of these days.

Bryan (he/they): 22:03

Yep. What I find most mind boggling is these same people will say that they're trying to protect the children, but then you have to have the FBI and Homeland Security involved, because people are threatening the children.

Anonymous (she/they): 22:17

Yeah, yeah, I'm like they were fine. Actually, we were doing fine. Yeah, we were good before you got here, thank you, thank you so much. Thank you for your concern.

Bryan (he/they): 22:28

Yeah, it's mind boggling to me that there's such a disconnect between action and words. I feel like I shouldn't be surprised, but I still hold out hope for a little bit of hope for humanity, I mean.

Anonymous (she/they): 22:43

I will say working with my queer students. That is what has me hold out hope for humanity, because these kids are I don't know if it's just that they've had to experience so much in their short lives around social justice and activism but like they, oh my God they are so incredibly inspiring and it's like that doesn't even feel like that word encapsulates, like what they, like they affirm everybody and everything around them without having to think about it twice, you know, and it's like wow, if everybody just thought about things the way that you guys do, everything would be fine. And so that's kind of why the student presentations have become such a hit, because the students take on the knowledge themselves to then share out with the group. So then I get to then validate and emphasize things that they're talking about, but I'm not actively teaching them things. They're the ones teaching the rest of the group and I just give them the space to do so.

Bryan (he/they): 23:51

Yep, I love that. I think that when we put the education into the students' hands, not only do they learn more, but it's like how are you going to argue with us right now? It's not the teacher saying these things, these kids are telling us and then sharing their knowledge, which is the point of education is for people to be able to learn things and be able to express what they've learned.

Anonymous (she/they): 24:12

Exactly, and I've never been in a room of students that has been more quiet, because they're actually paying attention to something, because they want to learn about it, and they had the choice to learn about it and then teach it to the rest of the group. It's like. It's almost like having representation is really important or something.

Bryan (he/they): 24:34

Wild Concept Yep, so out of this world. So, when it comes to career conversations, if you were to talk to somebody who was just getting started working in education and they were unsure about being authentic in their workplace, what kind of advice would you give to them as they enter that first year in education?

Anonymous (she/they): 25:01

Good question. I think three years ago I would have had a totally different answer. I think, given the social climate that we're currently navigating, I'm kind of at a point where I feel guilty urging people to be open when I know that they might not be in a safe space for them to do so, and I think that there's always ways for you to be true to yourself while also prioritizing your safety. I think, in the long run, this is a career, this is our career, this is what we have chosen to dedicate so much time out of our lives to do, and we already risk our life going into school buildings every day as educators. So adding on another layer of possible harm is something I would want people to assess for themselves beforehand, and there's so many ways to do that knowing what rights you have as an educator and what things you can talk about, or simple, simple things like just wearing a pride pin or having a pride flag in your classroom. If that's a thing I know in a lot of places it's not, and so it's so hard to navigate that and I only can say that so confidently because I live in a place where all of those things are promoted, you know, but then it still can come back on you, even if you're in a place where it's safe to do so, and so I would never want to put another educator in the spot that I was in, and so I would always want them to be assessing what could essentially come back and put them in a in harm's way.

Bryan (he/they): 26:37

Yep Safety first. That's like the number one, I think advice that everybody has given on the show is you have to do what's going to be best for your own safety.

Anonymous (she/they): 26:46

Absolutely.

Bryan (he/they): 26:48

And you are coming from a counseling perspective, so I'm excited to hear how that differs from, like, a teacher perspective. On this next question, what do you think that the school community can do, and that includes, like the staff, the faculty, includes school boards, it includes the general community, parents and whatnot. What do you think that the school community can do to be more supportive of 2SLGBTQ plus students and?

Anonymous (she/they): 27:23

faculty Totally. I think it kind of depends on the role. So for you know, educators, teachers or counselors I can say, at least in my district school counselors do a lot of teaching too, so I don't want to excommunicate us from that group. But I think, if you're in a state that you can, for safety reasons, I think trying to intentionally incorporate SEL with casual queer representation, such as through books highlighting different family structures or by having books in your classroom library that do the same, can actually go a lot farther than you would think. And also, like I mentioned, having a pride print or a flag in your classroom can also go a long way. But it really comes down to the small things, but because small steps in the right direction lead to bigger strides and then eventually lead to normalization, and so it's a slow train, but there's things that you can do. That I know as a queer person who notices any little rainbow wherever I go and go oh, gay, Like not everything, and I'm like that is that's pride. Right, there is, we notice, you know. I know for me I notice every little thing where I'm like I get to feel safe here, and it can be literally just a pride pin, Like it's not even a big deal. So I think for educators that specifically, but I think admin should take the time to learn about cultural sensitivity in general. So much of the time it's about school policy or whatever, but it's it's really about people when it comes down to it, and all communities of people are in our schools and they all need to be seen, valued and affirmed. So that might not look the same for every group what support looks like, and that's Fine, that's okay. We're all different and support looks different for individual needs. But I also think that admin need to take hate-based bullying and incidents seriously and openly. I had one admin that denounced open hate for the queer community and I remember being like whoa, like she put it in the school newsletter of like we do not do that here, and I was just like oh my gosh, like thank you, you know. And then that same admin actually wrote a letter to the students on the first day of the school I currently works at GSA, like the first one ever, mentioning how happy she was for them to have a safe space at school to be themselves and how she would always stand up for them no matter what. And I remember her giving me that letter and saying she wanted me to read it to the kids when they arrived because she wanted them to know that they were safe. And it literally had me crying. I was sobbing. I read this letter and it you know, it wasn't even intentionally meant to be super emotional but as somebody who, like you know, has experienced a lack of support to her to be so forthcoming of being like I got you oh my gosh, it's making me emotional thinking about it. It was so sweet. She basically was just like you know, like I got you and this is not something you have to be worried about if you're in this group and it was just like, oh my God, like it's amazing. I actually kept the letter. She's no longer an admin, but I kept the letter and it's still hanging up in my room and I read it on. The first days of GSA is. And I'm like you guys, this is what solidarity looks like and of course, they haven't experienced enough yet to understand how amazing that is, but eventually they'll be able to conceptualize that and it was a big one.

Bryan (he/they): 31:19

But yeah, and it's funny because it's such a small thing right A sentence or two in a newsletter and a letter to students, and it makes such a huge impact when it comes to that feeling of safety.

Anonymous (she/they): 31:34

Yeah, yeah, I mean, it made me feel safer, you know, and she, thankfully, was somebody who identified in the queer community and it was the first admin I'd ever worked with that identified as queer. And so I remember finding that out and being like, oh, thank God, I don't have to explain anything like you, just get it. And that for me was such a sigh of relief when first meeting her that I was like, wow, I don't even actually have to worry about a whole lot, like I know that she's going to understand if I experience anything as the educator and she'll have my back too.

Bryan (he/they): 32:13

Yep, that's why I've never worked with an admin who is queer or even close to the queer community, and I think that maybe someone oh yes, someone had a queer brother, but that person ended up being like incredibly, they used a lot of micro regressions.

Anonymous (she/they): 32:39

Oh, and I'll be.

Bryan (he/they): 32:39

I'll be clear that I'm using they as a way of not saying and identifying people. There were a lot of micro regressions that came out of that person's mouth and I was like what my queer brother?

Anonymous (she/they): 32:55

Yeah, yeah, I actually that kind of thing really. That really gets me and I and I learned it. I think I learned more about that as like the token gay or the token like friend of color. You know, that is just like. It's one of those things where when I hear it or I'm like in the moment and somebody is using that as like a justification for something, I'm like don't do it.

Bryan (he/they): 33:20

Just stop talking yeah no more, no more I'm experiencing it with my family and I'm like no stop. No I don't care whether whether it has to do with a race, whether it has to be with like I have a queer brother, like, no, just stop. It does not justify, like it does not mean that you are innately, you know, pro, you know, or anti racist, or you know.

Anonymous (she/they): 33:51

No, having no, having a queer friend or having people of color in your life does not make you not a queer phob or a racist.

Bryan (he/they): 34:02

So absolutely, and it's so cringy like you hear the sentence starting and you just go.

Anonymous (she/they): 34:11

No, and I mean I will say like at least if it's somebody I'm close with, that I feel comfortable being like I'll just be like oh, we can stop there honey. Nope, it's okay, it's all right, we're going to move on.

Bryan (he/they): 34:26

But let's learn from this, not to say that sentence.

Anonymous (she/they): 34:29

Yes, but okay, sorry, just because I want to get back to like how parents can support. That's like a huge, huge thing is that? I think this is something that if there's a queer educator at the school who's willing to essentially put themselves on the line a little bit is what I did with the GSA at the school that I no longer work at is. I had a newsletter that went out to all families of the school. I named it. I thought it was hilarious to take the power back right. It was called the gay agenda and when I got doxxed Not funny anymore.

Bryan (he/they): 35:19

No, absolutely not I do feel like the banner of it should have been like that agenda. That was like Monday VK, tuesday taco. Tuesday, wednesday, thursday, friday, saturday, sunday VK. Like that's the gay agenda, that actually that's hilarious.

Anonymous (she/they): 35:36

You bring that up because my poster for pride at one of the local elementary schools a couple years ago was that sign and it was so funny. But yeah, no, the gay agenda was not a hit. When people are trying to find information about you, that is, that's where the words groomer come come from. So I learned real quick. But there was an amazing part about the gay agenda is that I was very intentional about creating it because I wanted to start from the top of the topic, into the brains of adults that may not otherwise have opportunities to learn about queer culture, and so I did it in a way that was like fun and celebratory and not aggressive you know where stuff from the media kid is very, very aggressive. So what I did is I would interview the students about you know, do like an all about me, but about certain GSA students every month, and then I would ask them questions or opinions about things that they wanted to write about or they wanted to comment on. So it was a way for other families in school to kind of learn queer perspectives, but, you know, attuned to the kid perspective, versus it just being a queer adult being like, hey, this is the queer community understand it or don't, and so I think being able to give information in a way that people are going to be receptive to is a huge, huge thing. But it was a lot of. It was actually to support my queer kids in the group because, obviously, being 910 or 11, a lot of parents are going to assume it's a phase. That's just, you know, the typical thing, and so I wanted to be able to set these parents up for success that when this kid was like, very affirmed in their identity and being like no, this is, this is who I am that parents at least had some language and verbiage and topics to talk about with their kid, that wouldn't then be the queer kid trying to explain to them everything with no background knowledge. And so that was actually like one of my favorite things ever, and I just restarted it at my other school. It is not, it is not complicated, and I learned from that, but it's it's really fun and it's cool to see the parents like react to, about being like oh, I would have never thought that my kid would have answered that way. That's so cool, and I'm like, yeah, your kids are actually a lot cooler than you know. And so, I think, for parents to, I think, things that they can do, you know, other than being educated by their children all the time is, you know, creating a sense of safety at home in general by earning themselves to be their kids safe person is a big start. So I think, I think we all can remember a time when we didn't want to talk to our parents about something because we thought that they just wouldn't understand. And so I think it could be as simple as asking kids what makes them feel most comfortable clothing wise versus, you know, taking them to school shopping and walking directly to the boys or the girls section when shopping or attending events with diverse representations of families, and you don't even have to call it out. You know, you think kids notice, they're going to see, they're going to normalize things, and so I think that the best way I think anyone, though in general, can support inclusivity for queer kids is just by getting over the fear of not saying the right thing or not knowing how to address something, whether good or bad, and so I think that fear often keeps people from saying anything at all. Kids and teens notice when something isn't being talked about. I know with my own family. I noticed like queerness was not talked about, and that's something that I still hold on to. And, you know, continuing not to address queer identities or the issues faced by the queer community, even though they're so prevalent and so out there, is the first sign for a student to notice who is and who isn't their safe person and knowing who they can go to. And so I don't know. I think there's so many big and little things that you can do to support the identities and these kids being affirmed in who they are, whether or not they stay in the identity that they're in in this moment. You know, maybe in five years they won't feel the same way, and that's fine.

Bryan (he/they): 40:16

Yep, and I think that's something that everybody kind of needs to understand is that, like gender, sexuality, this is a journey and we all are gonna start on it when we're children, whether or not you're heterosexual or you're queer. Like the journey starts when you're young and there are lots of roads that will take you on. There's no one path. And sometimes you do have to, you know, flip a U-turn and reassess where you you know what turn you made and decide whether or not that's the route you want to go.

Anonymous (she/they): 40:55

Absolutely yeah, and giving the kids the space to do that, that's all they want. They just want to be able to explore it in a way where they don't have to, I guess, define themselves, so they don't want to have to solidify their identity when they're still exploring it. I mean, I'm 29 and I feel like I just started exploring my gender identity in the last three years, and just in those three years it's been completely different. And so for them, as they're literally developing, it's like no, they just, they just need the time.

Bryan (he/they): 41:31

Yeah, and there's already so much pressure to choose what you're gonna be Like. I mean my child. She is a fourth grader.

Anonymous (she/they): 41:40

Um.

Bryan (he/they): 41:41

And she will tell me, like every day, a new job that she's gonna be, and I was like, all right, well, you got time and all of you could do all of those things. You could do none of those things, whatever life tells you, and this idea that like, oh, you said something, so that's what it is, forever.

Anonymous (she/they): 42:01

Yeah.

Bryan (he/they): 42:01

I said I liked girls. Here we are, you know, um, that statement is not, you know, false. I have a ton of girlfriends, ton, mm-hmm, platonic, I have a ton. And it's just wild to me that people are like well, someone said this one time when they were 10, and that's, that's what it is. Um, but also wild to me that people will be like it's a phase, but not except the fact that their heterosexuality was not a phase.

Anonymous (she/they): 42:38

You, know what I mean. Like make it make sense, yeah.

Bryan (he/they): 42:41

Yeah.

Anonymous (she/they): 42:42

It's vulgar?

Bryan (he/they): 42:43

No, that's just not it. No, so at this point I'm going to turn the mic over to you and you get to ask me a closing question for our interview.

Anonymous (she/they): 42:52

Ooh, okay, my question is what is the best memory that you have if you have a girlfriend? What is the best memory that you have experiencing queer joy on your own as an individual?

Bryan (he/they): 43:08

Wow.

Anonymous (she/they): 43:10

No pressure.

Bryan (he/they): 43:11

Folks at home. Like she definitely gave me the option. She asked me this question before the interview and I was like, nah, it'll be fine. And then she came in with a hard hitting question Okay, so, queer joy, when I was 16, I went with my theater troupe in high school to New York City and I grew up in a suburb of LA. And here's the thing like people think LA is a very progressive place, but you and I both had the same experience, you know, seven, eight years apart from each other, and it was like queerness was not talked about. And so I went to New York with my theater troupe and I don't know, like how we managed to do this, but there was a lot of time where us teenagers were kind of waltzing around the city on our own or with, just like our 20 year old tour guide oh my God who was like we should go see this extra show and we should do this thing. And this extra show was like there was nude people in it and like it was performance art, like crazy, with like glow in the dark, pink and all this stuff. It was super cool, but I bought a rainbow beanie for myself and I'm like at a streetcar off of Christopher Street, which is a streetcar Off of Christopher Street, which is the hub of the queer community here, and I like remember cherishing that I had to hide it when I got home, but I remember cherishing that until I went to college and whatnot. And then life happens and you lose things as you go along the way. But like the joy I had because there was a blizzard and I didn't pack a beanie but I got to wear this rainbow beanie while I was here in New York City and I was like, you know, just with my friends, and like my friends are so funny, like we had a lot of, we really represented our cultures and so, like I had a theme song which was, you know, my first and last name, the San Francisco treat, ding, ding. You know, rice a Rony is rice a Rony theme song, because San Francisco was the queer Mecca of sorts. They were like that's your theme song, but you know, teenagers, but this group of kids, like they didn't care, and so I got to be myself on this trip, away from everybody at home, and I think that was probably my first experience with queer joy. Oh, my gosh and I live here and I'm so happy to be here, like I think it's funny. I came to New York City when I was 16, I came back Three years ago 2020, right before the city shut down, and was like gosh, this feels like home. And then my husband and I came here in March and we're like gosh, this feels like home. And then nowadays it's like always felt like home to me, even though I didn't live here.

Anonymous (she/they): 46:44

You know it's the beanie. It had to be the beanie.

Bryan (he/they): 46:48

The beanie had the staying power. I should go find like a cart that's selling that beanie and see if I can get another one. But yeah that that was probably it, and that's funny because you unlocked a memory of your joy. That whole experience was really defining for me because it was like my first moments of feeling free and ultimately I graduated 17, because I my birthdays in September and so I was the youngest person or second youngest person in my class, and so that was really formative for me because, like within a year of that, I was able to come out and I don't know that I would have been able to feel as confident with that like, granted, I had moved out of the house and I went to college and whatnot, but like, if I hadn't had this experience of liberty and freedom at 16, it would have probably taken a lot longer for me to be able to like verbalize things to my family. And you know, 20 years later, like my husband is a part of the family. My mom likes him more than he looks. She likes, you know, me, my siblings.

Anonymous (she/they): 48:06

She's known you long enough.

Bryan (he/they): 48:09

It's quite enough. My husband is like when she needs something, she calls him and I'm like all right, then, nice to hear from you too. But you know, it's those small experiences that we have that are going to make the biggest difference, and that's why space is like what you provide are so important, because if children can have that as a younger person, there's more time that they get to be themselves in their life. And right now there's this phenomenon happening where, like queer people have, you know, late puberty quote unquote because you kind of go through this second puberty that happens when you own your queerness.

Anonymous (she/they): 48:49

Oh my god, I'm in it, I'm in it, I literally the second, it's like the oh my God it is so is so incredible because, like I'm currently in it, that I'm like I can validate it is I feel like one. Obviously I'm the oldest that I've ever been. That's how age works. But is that I feel more youthful and more excited to just be okay with who I am, because I know who I am, and it's like being able to be open and not have to I don't even know, just like second guess anything about myself anymore has given me the confidence, like in the energy, to be like wow, this would have been nice to experience. You know, when everyone else was having their like glow ups, I feel like the queer glow up at least for a lot of the people in Portland I've noticed is like 27,. 27 is the year that you just like emerge from your cocoon and you're like I'm gay and I am good to go. I love it, I love it here.

Bryan (he/they): 49:54

I love that and the great thing is that, like your students get this experience at a younger age and they might not have to have this off balance of their puberty they can go through puberty and it is puberty fully, fully enveloped thing, and so I think that having those spaces is incredibly important. One side thing that I just this conversation got me thinking about was I watched the TV show Sex Education and in this last season there was a trans character and he expressed that he was just feeling his hormones all the time. And you know, and like, these kids are in their senior year of high school, so theoretically they've already kind of gone through most of puberty and he was kind of going through it again. And the response from one of the students is a sex counselor. That's kind of the premise of the show If you don't watch it, and his response was well, that just sounds like a typical teenage boy and like the affirmation of that was just like I don't know. It tugged in my heart and it's stuff like that that I'm like. I love the fact that children are able to kind of be themselves more often now, because I mean, they're gonna have life experiences that are more true to a typical timeline.

Anonymous (she/they): 51:35

Absolutely.

Bryan (he/they): 51:35

Heteronormative, homonormative, whatever you want to call it, but like what you expect to see in a lifetime and what science tells you is gonna happen biologically can be more in line if you are able to kind of own your identity at a younger age.

Anonymous (she/they): 51:55

Absolutely, and I think it's cool because they know that, you know, and I think one thing that I think they absolutely tripped out on was I told them one time I mentioned how I had a lot of boyfriends in high school and I was like, oh yeah, boyfriends, you know, very casual, just being like, and they were like you had boyfriends Because they know they like met my fiance and all the things and they like they love a queer couple. And so they're like wait, hold on, you've had boyfriends. And I was like, oh, you guys, I didn't come out until I was 19,. Okay, I had no idea for a very long time and they were just like so you had to like live a different life for a really long time and then figure it out. I was like, yeah, you guys get to experience things a lot differently than a lot of the people that I know. And they're like wow, that's really weird. And I'm like you're right, it is weird, it is weird and you guys have the upper hand and that's amazing. So I fully agree. I love giving them the space to explore and also helping their parents understand that it's like this is totally normal. This is the space to do so, and also making home the space to do so is only gonna help them be help their well-being be at the most full it can be.

Bryan (he/they): 53:20

Absolutely. I love that Cheers to the future folks that these young queer kids come up and are just a generation of proud queer people.

Anonymous (she/they): 53:32

I'm here for it.

Bryan (he/they): 53:34

Thank you so much for coming on the podcast tonight. Like I really appreciate it. I've really enjoyed our conversation and I love the work that you're doing as an elementary counselor.

Anonymous (she/they): 53:44

Thank you so much and thank you so much for having me. I love talking about my queer kids and they love to be acknowledged, so Absolutely. They're like over here being like seen.

Bryan (he/they): 53:55

Say more, say more, oh yes. Thank you all for listening wherever you are, and I hope you have an amazing day. Goodbye, thank you. Thank you for joining us on this episode of Teaching While Queer. I hope you enjoyed it. If you did, make sure to subscribe. Wherever you listen to your favorite podcast, leave a review, and that would help out tremendously. You can also support the podcast by going to www. teachingwhilequeer. com and hit support the show. Thanks so much and have a great day.