Navigating Queerness in Academia: Keri McDonough's Journey of Self-Discovery and Inclusivity

Bryan (he/they): 0:27

Teaching While Queer is 2SLGBTQIA+ podcast for educational professionals to share their experiences in academia. Hi, I'm your host, bryan Stanton, a theater pedagogy and educator in New York City, and my goal is to share stories from around the world from two SLGBTQ plus educators. I hope you enjoy Teaching While Queer. Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Teaching While Queer. I am your host, Bryan Stanton, and today I am excited to introduce you all to Keri McDonough. Hi, Keri, how are you?

Keri (they/them): 1:07

Hi Brian, how are?

Bryan (he/they): 1:08

you, I'm good. It's a little warm in New York, but not too bad, because I came from Texas where it is obnoxiously hot.

Keri (they/them): 1:15

I was going to say that's a big difference.

Bryan (he/they): 1:17

Yes, absolutely so. I might be a little bit dewy right now, but honestly, anything beats 100 degree weather for over a month. So when, Carrie, tell us a little bit about yourself. Where are you from? What do you do? How do you identify within?

Keri (they/them): 1:34

the community. Sure, so I'm Carrie. I use they them pronouns I identify as queer, very queer, I guess, non-binary, individual, AFAB. Yeah, and currently what I do for work I work at a university in Rhode Island and I'm the assistant director for their LGBTQ Center, which is awesome. I'm a little new to the role. I've been in it since about April, so their spring semester, so still kind of learning the ins and outs of it. But I've been working in higher education as a student affairs professional for almost 10 years now, so I've been doing that for a while and I've enjoyed it. I've been sticking around mostly the New England area. I have from Massachusetts originally, have worked in New Hampshire, currently in Rhode Island, went to school in Vermont, so it's kind of all over New England.

Bryan (he/they): 2:28

Oh yeah, you're just getting the tour.

Keri (they/them): 2:31

Exactly, so I've lost all of them. I got two more left, so I've lived in all.

Bryan (he/they): 2:35

Punch card. It's a punch card system here, folks, so let's take a journey back in time. You grew up in Massachusetts, and what was it like for you as a queer student?

Keri (they/them): 2:47

Very interesting. So I didn't really realize that I was queer until I was a sophomore in high school. I'd gone to Catholic school for most of my elementary and middle school time. So then I went to an all female Catholic high school, which was very interesting in the early 2000s. I was in high school from 2000 to 2004. So that span of time where gay marriage was not legal anywhere at that point. So that wasn't something that was offered to us as an option. To have a GSA or talk about being LGBTQ or no characters on TV other than the ones that were mockeries of things or were outcast or stuff like that. So, there was no real resource and Google was not a thing. There were search engines, which were not very helpful because chances are, you searched for lesbian and pulled up a foreign site, which is not what I was interested in, and chats were also not much better back then. So for me as a high schooler I was like all right, realizing that this is real. I'm at an all female school. I know no other queer people in person, so what do I do with that? So I talked to my friends, and only a few of them, and sadly one of them outed me afterwards. So I came out, whether I wanted to or not, but I was a very well-behaved kid so I never caused issues. I didn't, to my knowledge, stir any pots or anything. That I was just quietly going through, just being an awkward sophomore in high school. So for me it wasn't too bad until I was really searching for support, and then I didn't have any. I tried going to the school counselors the mental health counselors that they had. They had no idea what to do with that. There were definitely queer teachers at school, but they couldn't be out. So it was definitely a unique experience. For sure, I didn't actually date a girl or kiss a girl until I was in college. So that definitely came later in my life. Then it was for most people in high school, I guess.

Bryan (he/they): 5:15

For sure, and I think it's interesting because we are two years apart. I graduated two years before you. My husband graduated the same year that you did, and you just described a landscape that took me back like, oh wow, so, folks who are younger, chat rooms. Let's talk chat rooms first. Chat rooms on AOL is where most of us, during the time, we used to have to pick these up CDs they're compact disc folks. For any of you who don't know, it's like a little mirror that you can play music off of but also download programs. We pick up these CDs to go into AOL chat rooms, which were just like man for man, boston, man for man, los Angeles, or whatever the situation was, or woman for woman, and we would try to chat with people. And that's where all the internet scaries come out, where you're like, yeah, that's actually like a 70-year-old dude named Chuck or whatever. We really have no idea. We really had no idea who was on the other end of the screen. It was all brand new and so many of us, especially so many of us young people at that time who were learning the technology, we are the reason that all the securities exist now, by the way, which I tell my kids all the time because they're like I thought I could get away with this and I'm like I'm the reason that security exists, and so it was a wild time because we would go to these places to just seek out advice or to learn more about culture and whatnot, and it was really just like people going ASL, which means age sex location because really they were only interested in the sex part of connecting.

Keri (they/them): 7:03

So there was no community building. No, no finding like queer Super League board games. That was not an option to do things back then.

Bryan (he/they): 7:14

Yeah, absolutely, and now there's so many options online where you can connect with people, whether or not it's only in the virtual realm, especially for people who are like gamers and whatnot. Like you can have a whole community just on your Xbox, and so there's so many options for that. But for those of us who grew up during this kind of like introduction to the internet, it was really hard, because not only did the physical spaces have limited resources and they were hard to find, but then there were practically no virtual spaces that actually provided any information.

Keri (they/them): 7:46

Yeah, and libraries didn't have anything either. Back in the day, when you went to a library and searched for it, you'd find look for newspaper articles. They were all bad articles.

Bryan (he/they): 7:55

Yeah.

Keri (they/them): 7:56

You search for books. They're ancient and or medical books Like. None of them were positive things to really look for, and the very few ones that existed did not exist in my high school library because they did not do that at Catholic school. Oh, absolutely.

Bryan (he/they): 8:11

I feel like it was probably doubly difficult at Catholic school, because your counselors would have no idea what to do, because it wasn't something that you were, it wasn't something that was either talked about or like done. It was a huge sin, you know.

Keri (they/them): 8:28

And it was for a while, my high school. I don't mind naming it because that's fine. I was Flock on Academy and, if anyone remembers, in 2014, so around my 10-year high school reunion when they're trying to be like give us money and come visit and all that, hey, you can't bring a partner at all, regardless of their gender. It's always just the person. But they were in the news because they were being sued. Some in the RTS is lost in because they fired someone for being gay or they rescinded the offer. Correction they were not hired yet they put their same sex partner on their emergency contact and they rescinded the offer instantaneously and it was like so luckily he won, that was great, but he was like gonna be in charge of food service, something like Something minor like, not even directly related to being in front of children every single day Because, honestly, the food service managers that I've met as a teacher like I never see them actually interacting with the students Right. That's wild. It's so wild. So it was like, and it was the first case of its kind and one that actually they won. So it was. I'm sitting there like, wow, it's been 10 years. Marriage equality passed in 2004 for Massachusetts, like this is not new. And they still just were like, nope too bad. So clearly they were not about to say, oh yes, let's have a conversation during counseling about how you're queer. That wasn't-.

Bryan (he/they): 9:59

Yeah, I've been in it. So interesting too, because I feel like lately there seems to be a bigger disconnect between like localities and like central church too, which is so fascinating to me as, like a non-organized religious person Like I'm very spiritual and I have my own practices and whatnot. But when I watch organized religion, it's like every locality is so different in what they want to believe so it almost isn't like it, it's like unorganized religion.

Keri (they/them): 10:34

Very unorganized. Although the Catholic Church is pretty, they know how to organize when they need to, it's usually not for great things, sadly, yeah.

Bryan (he/they): 10:45

My first Catholic service, honestly that I can remember, was my grandmother's funeral and I was just like I don't have any idea what they're saying, because it was all in Latin and that was my introduction to the Catholic Church. And it's funny because when I went on to get my music degree, for a while I worked for an Episcopal Church which is like Catholic light. They have a lot of the ritual side of Catholicism but they are considered like their own sect of Christianity and so I was doing a lot of this singing and Latin, all this stuff and all this ritualized work and whatnot as a singer professionally and so it's just, it's been interesting kind of watching religion.

Keri (they/them): 11:34

Yeah, yeah, especially when you think about how Catholic churches work and they're so ingrained and the Pope is held up to this huge high standard and just like I don't know. It's a lot of blind faith. And, as someone who was a very devout Catholic, I went to Catholic schools in second grade. Through high school I was part of a youth group. I really loved being a part of it. Eventually I got kind of asked to leave the church for whatever. But I was like, wow, I would go to masses with my family, go to services with extended family when there were funerals or first communions or whatever, and me and my sister are sitting there and we know the hand motions to everything, we know the words to everything, and everyone else in the church is like not, and we're like how is it the queer knows more about what to do during the service than everyone else in the room?

Bryan (he/they): 12:31

I don't know. I have theories about that, because, also, I think there's so much done with masking who we are that we overcompensate by being the top student in certain things. So I would agree with that. I played baseball until I was 14. And I kind of started hating it when I was nine, and it was all just in an effort to mask who I was and try to find something that was more masculine to do, because that's what society was like for us. Yeah, definitely, it's definitely interesting. How do you see your experiences as a youth, like as a queer youth, the experiences that you had playing out in your roles, working on the college campuses?

Keri (they/them): 13:22

Well, when I first started trying to look for work in higher education, I really actually wanted to work at Catholic schools because I was like, oh, maybe I could be that resource for someone else. No, could never get a job at one. I tried. I got an internship at one and then applied for a job they had and didn't get it. So I was like you know what? I'm going to give up on the Catholic schools for now. But I think it gives me a really good perspective of looking at the students that I work with, because many of them are open about being LGBTQ at least to me anyway, because that's why they're seeking me out, and I hope that means that I have a good perspective that they may be coming from somewhere that's not accepting for them that telling a parent could be a major issue. Telling a grandparent or even a friend can be really stressful, because if their friend is part of their either religious background or cultural background, where that's not OK, you have a big risk of losing something that's really important to you, and so hopefully that means I have a good perspective on that. But also, even though I was outed, essentially, I don't know how long I would have stayed in the closet. For if I wasn't forced out but because I was so out and open, I had gotten feedback from people years and years later saying that it was cool that you were open with yourself. It was awesome to see you just be gay because I didn't have a choice, I was out already and to have people notice that and appreciate it even just in passing, as peers, it was huge. So if I can be, that for my students is amazing. And then, looking back, it's weird because I don't feel like an elder.

Bryan (he/they): 15:02

But I'm almost one.

Keri (they/them): 15:04

So I guess I'm getting there and looking at things and going, wow, I don't really have any gay elders to look to to see, to know that, wow, you can be queer and become old, because a lot of people didn't get to become old Many different reasons, their life was ended short for so many reasons that it's rare to see. So knowing that I may not be that old but even so there may not be someone that people know my age that's queer is important.

Bryan (he/they): 15:38

Yeah, I think it's so interesting because there are a lot of conservative folks right now. Touting this must be a new thing, because where are the old gay people? And I'm like, well, they all died because of bad policies or they stayed in the closet and lived the life that was unhappy, or maybe happy, but not the life that they would have chosen if they were allowed to just be themselves. There are so many mitigating factors, but we can't deny that gay people have been here forever. There's evidence. So it's just wild to me because I feel that I feel a lot of I don't know. It's very weird. I feel a lot of loss. I'm a very empathetic person, but I feel a lot of loss for the generation ahead of me, where all of these people died of AIDS or were forced into closets, and I mean, luckily, the lesbian community fared a ton better than gay males. But gay males, transgender women, transgender men, there was a ton of the community that was just lost and I feel like it's weird because I was born after it or in the middle of it, born in the mid-80s, so I wasn't involved with it. But I feel like this sense of loss because you, I don't necessarily have those people to look to in the future, and so I have to be that. I'm turning 40 next year and I am the middle-aged gay person that people can look up to.

Keri (they/them): 17:23

And also seeing successful couples or just people who are not just like, oh, they're not just getting by, but they're actually in important roles, is also really amazing to see. And being able to know that no, it does get better is hard to say to students when they're like, but I don't see anyone older. Yeah, if you're like, no, but it does, and this is how it can get better and it's good to be that example out there.

Bryan (he/they): 17:53

Ironically, I think that's why the AIT Gets Better campaign was started, because there was no one for us to look at. There was no one around.

Keri (they/them): 18:01

No one, no one to see and no one to be like, other than like extremes that were in media and stuff like that. And also, now that there's ways of documenting things, you can connect with people across the country, which is amazing, versus like, oh well, if you were a gay couple and you both passed away from AIDS and there was no one who documented, there was no way of seeing that you were in fact a couple together, that your love even existed, because everything had family matter thrown out or erased your name, or all of a sudden it was like even if they had a story, it wasn't always saved, which is sad.

Bryan (he/they): 18:37

Yeah, absolutely. So let's talk a little bit about your journey into the kind of queer, non-binary realm, because I imagine, like you or like me, like it didn't really exist and so that journey came much later in life. So what was that like for you?

Keri (they/them): 19:00

Yeah, well, for the non-binary aspect of my world that actually only came around in my 30s, even though there were signs for it long, long time ago. That was something that I grappled with really hard. The first trans person I met was in college and I had no idea what trans was. I was like I don't know what it was. I knew there was lesbian and bisexual and gay. That's all I knew Because I had no education about it. So for me to be at a point where I'm like wow, I'm actually exploring my gender and what that means Versus being always putting on a mask and always putting on what I felt was a costume, it's nice to kind of be just me. That came about, honestly, after I was in a really healthy relationship with my now life, who was completely supportive. All of that. I was at a job where there were other people my age who were also out as non-binary or trans and it became okay. It wasn't like this one-off person that's over there that you met once in your life, or a couple folks that are in one little group of the students at school. It's like no, these are average people who are doing these wonderful things and I can connect with and could actually relate to. So I was like, all right. So now I have permission in my mind to actually explore the thoughts I've had, and a lot of it came around my anxiety because I would get stressed. I actually would go to get dressed in the morning, change my clothes a good three, four, five times and my wife would see me getting upset and almost crying because I can't find the thing that fits. I want to wear this button down shirt, but I have double D chest that doesn't fit underneath this, and so then I just go and wear something that's not very fitting to me, doesn't fit my personality, but it doesn't look the worst. So I'm going to go out and dress like that and noticing those patterns that were causing me stress and making it so I wasn't doing well at my job because I'm so worried about how I look all the time. Maybe that's a problem. I went to therapy. Yay, therapy is a. Therapy is amazing and it's really great to have like queer affirming counselors that help me kind of figure out. Yeah, you know, like that's what this means. This is dysphoria and or it could be dysphoria and all that. So looking at it and going, okay, I'm not so tied to this female identity that I was born with, especially going to Catholic all female school, it was overly ingrained to be proud to be a woman and proud to like be a woman of respect and responsibility and all these things, and it took me a while to be proud to be a woman, but then I realized I'm proud of others for being women. It's not necessarily how I identify and that was, that was a major thing for me to come to terms with. Yeah, I know I just talked about a lot of different things.

Bryan (he/they): 21:56

So it's really interesting. I was thinking a lot just about, like something that you brought up that we haven't really talked about on the podcast is the side of the body dysmorphia, and like that couples a lot with gender dysphoria. Is it gender dysphoria, body dysmorphia? I think I'm saying the right terms, but it's basically when, like your body, you're just like upset with the way your body looks and feels, and so that can come up in a lot of ways. Like for myself, it shows up a little bit, like it shows up with gender dysphoria to an extent, because I'm also non-binary person. I happen to like err more towards the masculine side of things, but I'm also incredibly feminine, and so there are things that about my body that bother me from the gender aspect, but also it can show up with like weight, too skinny or too fat or too whatever it might be, and so like I have those issues where I'm changing my top several times because also my chest is too big for what I want to wear, and so I was just thinking about how interesting it is for me because I would be considered like I'm a Mab, I assign male at birth, right, and I'm non-binary, but we have the same sense of dysmorphia when I came to like putting on this button-up shirt and it's so. It's just fascinating to me because, like we can be different in so many ways but then have these shared experiences. That I think really help bring the community together because it, like a lot of people might look at a Mab and a FAB people and be like they have to have like completely different experiences. Like it's a whole, like it's a whole realm of things where, like they're not even going to be similar stories but in fact it could be incredibly similar.

Keri (they/them): 23:58

Incredibly similar. Yeah, and that's also one of the things that I try to express when I'm talking with students, because all different types of students come to talk to me and they have very different journeys and everyone is individual. But even though I may not identify exactly the same as them, there is definitely crossover, and there's crossover with peers as well. So it's like, oh cool, like there's a trans and non-binary group that meets regularly and even though the majority of the ones who are there present more either mask or more FAB, it doesn't mean the other group can't go and they can't talk to each other and they can't relate. It's also, you know, there's not one way to be trans and one way to be non-binary. There's so many different ones out there and if you only have one example, you only look at something and go, oh, like that's the path I have to take, but you don't. There's plenty out there.

Bryan (he/they): 24:51

Yeah, absolutely. So let's talk a little bit about the resources that you provide to your students. What do you find students are most in need of from your center?

Keri (they/them): 25:03

One thing I think they're very much in need of, because the university that I work at right now is it's a pretty well-known one and it's the students come from all over, all over the world, all over the country. So I think one thing that they're really looking for is community and finding connection which I think just any college student wants in general, but a lot of them really want that with their queer peers. They could be coming from somewhere that they were the only queer still, or they weren't out in high school because they might be coming from, you know, a place like Missouri or Texas where they're currently passing 20 plus bills and laws. Some of them are coming internationally, from cultures where it's just it's not okay and it's disrespectful to do that in their culture, when they're not trying to be disrespectful, they're trying to be themselves. So I think, just finding those connection points and, I think, just people to talk to whether it's staff and faculty that just have a story that they can relate to or could be a listening ear, or peers that are just like, hey, let's just, let's talk about this, this TV show we saw, and just be ourselves and comfortable.

Bryan (he/they): 26:13

Did you work with LGBTQ centers on campus prior to the pandemic or the isolation of the pandemic?

Keri (they/them): 26:22

A bit. It wasn't my direct job. So I worked at another university in Massachusetts during the pandemic and I was working in Resonance Life. So I was an RD living in the dorms on campus all the time and pandemic hits and I have to close the dorms. So that was a little little intense. And at the same time I was the advisor for the LGBTQ group on campus. I was also running our Trans Ally training and Ally training and helping with the vagina monologues, like you name. It is what I did, but those were all like my. Those were all like the volunteer parts of my job. They weren't the actual required parts, right, but I definitely was doing that at the pandemic and then during the pandemic as well, which is extremely hard to do.

Bryan (he/they): 27:09

So I guess my question is I've talked with a community college instructor recently on an interview and she noted that like there are students who are lacking now coming into college uh, social emotional skills and regulation and whatnot. And so did you see a change in the students before and after isolation and like what, what kind of things? And this goes out to like the college professors out there, because I know that, as a high school teacher, like we get the training to like assist with social emotional learning, because almost everywhere in the country is a part of the curriculum that we have to take care of making sure that the students are okay, but that training doesn't necessarily extend to college campuses. So like how, on a college campus, what are the some things that, like, a professor might be able to do to just kind of help support a student through this transition into college, where I feel like it might be needed even more so now than prior to isolation?

Keri (they/them): 28:16

Good question.

Bryan (he/they): 28:17

Oh yeah, coming with the hard hitting questions.

Keri (they/them): 28:21

I think that I feel like the students that are coming in feel like they missed out on a lot. Not only are they missing some of these skills because they were, they were like, hey, we're going to go be awesome together and then don't touch them. No, go near them, like they were. Like it became like a reaction, response to like oh, should I be in this space, should I be near people? I had students that were trying to balance meeting significant others that they'd been like essentially having an online relationship with, in their finally meeting in person and they're like what do you do? Like how do you have a first date? Like how do you have that stuff? So it was very interesting to kind of start from scratch, because normally they come in as first year students and have had some of that experience with y'all. So I think providing I mean faculty are a little tricky because they're mainly in the classroom and they're in the classroom and they're out of the classroom. Some of them are really great and they're a little bit more active, but I think knowing especially the teachers that have the ability to see into the students were a little bit more, such as those who like read what they write or see what they perform and stuff like that, that kind of thing. They see more of their students and they notice that there's something else they need. So doesn't necessarily mean they need to have every single resource on campus, but knowing, yes, there's a counseling center. How do you refer someone there in a nice way, without making it seem like you need help, because that's not necessarily it. Knowing if there is an LGBTQ center on campus or a student group or is there a women or gender center, a students of color center for them to go to. Like, what are these resources that are available? And it doesn't mean you have to have spent the time to make a connection with each and every one, but know that they're there. So if a student's like, hey, I noticed you were writing about this in here, like have you connected with anyone on campus? And to kind of share that experience with others? And you know, having that information, I think also just being able to especially those who are still doing online classes, because they're still a thing which is extremely hard to do creating those safe spaces of hey if you put your pronouns on your name on Zoom, you know, maybe a student will as well, or at least they know they can tell you their pronouns. That makes it comfortable. If there's something in your syllabus that says it. There are little nuances to show you are a safe person without necessarily having that start of the semester that everyone usually has in person.

Bryan (he/they): 30:54

Yeah, and I think there's something to be said about that. Like you don't have to have a beautiful rainbow flag that says you are loved, like the one right behind you, in order to signal to students that you are a safe person to talk to, right, like you can do things like putting your pronouns in your syllabus or on your Zoom or whatnot Just these tiny little triggers that let the student know like hey, I'm sending up a little flare, you can come talk to me if you need to. Like I'm a safe person. And it doesn't have to be like out loud and proud. And that's one of the things that I'm huge proponent of, especially right now, because, like here well, not here, but when I was in Texas, there was like a war on rainbows to the point where, like, even kindergarten classrooms were being stripped of rainbows and I'm just like, how are they going to learn the colors? Like, what are we going to do there? Yeah, and so like there are other things that we can do to help. If you don't feel comfortable putting up a rainbow flag or being really loud about being supportive, you can be supportive in ways that just show someone support, without having to be a bainter weaver, which I'm a huge. I'm a huge fan of bainter waivers. I've been one, I'm kind of consistently one. This podcast is technically that. But also I'm a huge proponent of the people behind the bainter waiver who are there also supporting and doing what they can in a safe way, because I mean there's wild things happening. People are dying because of rainbow flags. Like, do we need to put ourselves in physical danger in order to support people? No, we can find ways to do it that works within the space that we're in.

Keri (they/them): 32:48

Exactly. Yeah, so and I mean, I'm a big rainbow flag, waiver I, that's. That's the center I work at, so me too.

Bryan (he/they): 32:55

I have a tattoo.

Keri (they/them): 32:59

But it's okay. It's also let's folks know who maybe aren't queer, but I have someone who's very dear to them that's queer. Know that you're also a safe person to talk to about that. Or you have a brother or sister who are pibbling, who's trans and but you don't know if you're welcome to talk about that in a space either. There's so many people who who need this support and it's not just queer people, but it's queer people and their extended families.

Bryan (he/they): 33:25

Yep, absolutely so. As we get to winding down on the episode, I have a question for you. What advice would you give someone who's going into academia, who is not necessarily sure to be their authentic self in the space?

Keri (they/them): 33:40

I get. I get asked that question a lot actually about like, how to? What do you include when you're applying for any job, but specifically academia One? If you're going into that, you're doing some amazing work, because it's not a very prestigious job, it's. It's because you really want to be, you want to better your community and better the youth that are out there. So props to you for wanting to join this wonderful, wonderful world. But as you're, as you're applying, and you're thinking about what to do, like where to go, do research, really take a look at what policies are in place in the state, in the city and in the school itself that you're applying to. What are your make and make or breaks? There is that look like I don't know if it's lucky or not lucky, but you're going in a field that has a shortage. So chances are they're going to watch you as an employee, but that's not necessarily always going to stay the same. So you know you may have your your pick, but at the same time, you know balance out like hey, this is I, this is something I need, versus something I can compromise on this. On the first one that I take, I can, I can. I can deal with that in the span of time until I get to the next job, that it might be a little bit safer for me to to be out or fully out. Look at, ask questions of HR is another thing. Like if you're getting through that process and you're like, yes, like this is, this is the job I want. Ask HR question questions be like oh cool, like are there? Like who is included in you know your dependence. Like you don't have to specify what a same sex partner be, but who is and they would be. If they are a chance that they're going to tell you. If not, that that'll be a hint. If they're kind of hiding that. So kind of looking at that and honestly make sure you still love what you're doing, because even those schools that are really really hard to work in, the students there are also really in need to. So it'd be great if everywhere we work was was wonderful. But sometimes the work we need to do is not in necessarily the best places. If you got that motivation and that energy and and the ability to do so, that's awesome. But definitely keep yourself safe, because you also need to be able to do the job and if you're not safe, you know you're not. You're not going to be able to be your full self in the classroom or in the office or a center or wherever you're working. Just like you want your students to bring their whole self to school, you need to bring your whole self to work.

Bryan (he/they): 36:12

Absolutely. That was wonderful. I like it because you also broke it down into like actionable steps, which I really appreciate. Right, it's not some metaphysical thing, we're not out here in the world, we're taking actionable steps. And then my final question for you is what can academia, just like the school community, do to make campuses more inclusive for LGBTQ students?

Keri (they/them): 36:40

Um, I mean even just like something as simple as making their applications more LGBTQ friendly. I know a lot of times, especially colleges and research, they like data and it's really hard to track LGBTQ students because they don't always tell you or it changes on and so forth. But try your best to include things, even in something as you know, like what is your, what is your legal name, because they need that for certain things, but what is your preferred name? That applies to people with nicknames too. Like just because it's it might have been focused on LGBTQ students doesn't mean it doesn't benefit others. Think about the space that you're in and is the space welcoming for them. Is there an all gender restroom or no gender restroom? Should I say like a single stall that someone could use and not feel stressed about Because you have to go to the bathroom? You don't know if you can use that room. You're not focusing on the classroom, you're focusing on I have to pee and it takes away from things. So just kind of recognize in the space and create a place for students to voice what you might be missing, because I miss things all the time and I'm looking for it. So the students are usually very good about voicing their opinions, especially in college, of what they need, and then just think about who you're missing. Just because you know you have one all gender restroom here, it doesn't mean it's a handy, accessible one. So if someone is queer and disabled, can they actually use that, or must they then go to the other? So there's all sorts of things that are our factors and intersectional of it, and always think about who is not included, not who you are including.

Bryan (he/they): 38:24

Absolutely. You mentioned some stuff that just got my brain like thinking about my own coursework and research and it's like the curb cut effect, which is basically when you do something for one community but it benefits everyone. Like when we cut the corner of a sidewalk for a curb so that it has a ramp, so that wheelchair users or people on wheeled devices are able to easily get up on that curb, everybody benefits from it. Escalators and elevators versus stairs like more people benefit from those things and anybody can use them. So it's like that idea of all gender or no gender restrooms and you know, putting preferred name on there. I read this beautiful newsletter or newspaper article written by someone and I don't remember where it's from. It was just came across my feed but it was a gentleman who goes by the name of Bud, but his actual name was Howard that's what's written on his birth certificate and his mom called him Buddy forever and when he was 11, he changed it to Bud so that he could be more grown up and no one about it and I and no one got his parents involved when he went to school and said actually call me bud, and so it was like this really wonderful story about this. You know this cis white man who was basically like, well, if I could have done it, you know, 40 years ago. I don't understand why you're in an uproar right now because people should be allowed to be called what they want to be called. And it was so nice, because it really does play into that, like there are so many places on an attendance sheet or whatever for us to write the nicknames that students want to be called, like call me AJ instead of Alexander or whatever, and and so it's like why can't we accept the fact that that could be used unilaterally?

Keri (they/them): 40:27

I'm sure, I'm sure Ron DeSantis is full name Ronald, yeah, I run all the time like really like you're right there Not using your, your given name.

Bryan (he/they): 40:37

So yes, very. Also Raphael Cruz. Oh, yep, yeah, ted Cruz, right, yep when I was living.

Keri (they/them): 40:47

Yes, when I was living in.

Bryan (he/they): 40:48

Texas. So it's what was wild for me is there was these campaigns where, like Ted Cruz was like Beto Rourke is just using Beto to try to connect with the community, like with the Hispanic community, and it was actually like the nickname he'd been called his whole life and meanwhile, like Raphael Cruz, is using Ted to connect with the white community. So it's like I Don't understand. And again, you're using the name you want to be called, so why don't other people, why don't other children get to have that ability?

Keri (they/them): 41:29

Right, exactly. If it was a nickname on a baseball team. I'm sure you'd go with whatever it was in a second.

Bryan (he/they): 41:34

Yeah, absolutely so. Before we end the episode, this is your opportunity to ask me a question and I will gladly answer whatever you ask.

Keri (they/them): 41:44

So take it away, carrie, awesome um, I Would see I had a couple questions in my head. I feel like they all just left. What inspired you to start this podcast? But what? What is it about this that made you go? This is this is what I want to do, and this is the way I want to do it.

Bryan (he/they): 42:05

Yeah, so two years ago I was going through some stuff at the school that I was working with and I was looking for, like community, a space where I can hear how other people were dealing with stuff. I don't know how like people, how familiar people are with this, but, like For the last several, I would say, like five to seven years, teachers of the year who are queer get incredibly ostracized and Like, pretty soon later on in the season, I'm going to be interviewing the 2020 to Kentucky teacher of the year who, like, left the state of Kentucky and left teaching because of the ostracization, and I got teacher of the year for my school district and was dealing with some of that ostracization because, like, a spotlight is put on you and there was no place for me to like connect with other people, and so I made this caught podcast because, like, I've listened to several podcasts that are by some very wonderful cisgender, heterosexual white females about pedagogy and how to teach in classroom culture and all these things, and Not once did I ever hear a podcast that included anybody from our community not any guest interviews, nothing and so I realized that there was this huge gap in in representation and I felt like, okay, I'm gonna give it a year and if Nobody fills that gap, then I'm gonna do it. And so I Took a year and then last summer, when nobody filled the gap, I did, and so I started in 2022 with my interviews and did my first season and then I have kind of grown in how I talk to people because I Love stories. I mean this is why I teach theater right, I love stories, I love listening to people talk. I feel like that's why I'm a much better director than I am an actor is because I really do enjoy like Storytelling and helping people tell stories, and so I feel like that's where this kind of like interview style Podcast came about was just to hear other people's story and like and to some extent, on a selfish level, it's like knowing that I wasn't alone in what I was experiencing and and now all these other people are connected right Like we, you can go back and listen to episodes that have people was shared experiences. What I'm loving about this season so far is that there is quite a bit of representation of the community, like I've managed to get all of the acronym or you know, 95% of the acronym in this, and I'm only halfway through recording the season, and so I just really love that, like so many people are coming to this saying that like, wow, this is something that I needed to. I needed to be a part of this, and so I'm really appreciative of, appreciative of that, and and I get to like just enjoy being what connected with so many people. So that's, that's why, that's how we're here today.

Keri (they/them): 45:26

Yeah, well, the only other question I have for you could be a really quick one. Yeah, how would you recommend to LGBTQ teachers and educators out there to not get burned out?

Bryan (he/they): 45:37

Oh, burn out. I wish I knew a good answer. Remind the good things when you, when you're having stressful moments so it's really rough for me because I'm a theater teacher and, if anybody knows, like elective teachers at high schools, like we are always like the first people there and the last people out we spend so much time like coaches and Fine arts teachers were like always there. So burnout was a huge problem that I've had in the past and I think one of the things I did was I set boundaries. I Took off the email notifications on my phone. I don't even have access to like my school email on my phone and, granted, I know that I can go to my browser and look it up. So in emergency situations, emergency situations or if I'm expecting something, I can do that, but I'm not getting constantly dinged by it. I Put a very firm like communication guidelines to parents and students that are basically like I will not respond to you after this time period. Until this time period, so like from 5 pm To 8 am, I am not responding to any emails. If we have an emergency situation during a performance because I'm a fine arts teacher, there are other emergency protocols that people can follow for that specific performance, but my blanket rule is this time period. Another thing that really helped me out and this scares a lot of you know, theater teachers because they, like I, need the rehearsal time. I kept it. I left at 6 every day. I said I am done at 6 every day, with the exception of performance dates and like the week of a show and the week before a show. But every other rehearsal I had was from right after school until 6 o'clock, and then I was home having dinner and interacting with my family. And so I think that one of the things that we have to do to avoid burnout is to remember to prioritize ourselves and what we're doing outside of school, because it's so easy to just be considered a teacher. You're just a teacher, and just a teacher means that, like you work for the parents, you work for the students and you have no life to yourself. You spend a thousand dollars on decorations and you have to be able to put those limits on yourself to make sure that you stay safe in and protect it throughout the year, so that way you don't feel resentment or burnout. Because I think that's the thing about burnout Is it's not just the work, it's the resentment that comes with it, and that resentment comes from not feeling like you can prioritize yourself. And so my biggest thing is this you have to be firm with whatever your expectations are, just like we do in the classroom. If we set these classroom guidelines and we want the students to uphold those guidelines, then we need to be firm with them. But at the same time, we also need to be firm with ourselves that these are my office hours and this is what I'm working in. Like I only take home work for grading on, you know, every Tuesday of the week. Otherwise, every you know, every other day I'm just home Because it could be really easy to take everything home every night because there's so much work. But, like we also control the work Right. We make the syllabi, we, we plan the courses, we we can say how much grading needs to happen. So, like, being more mindful of that in the process is also super helpful. So that those are my tips. And then, for those of you who don't work in a classroom, like I think the same thing goes for you Like I've worked in corporate environments where my expectation and sometimes I was working like 16, 17 hour days is like, just know that it's okay to not work overtime and Also that it's okay to not respond to texts and emails and phone calls when you are on your own time Because you're not getting paid for any of that, even if you're salaried, like there are laws that Prevent salaried workers from being abused like know your laws and put your foot down because it might be hard and you might be worried about, you know, losing your job or whatever. But like I feel like holding people accountable. If you were a loser job, that's not really on you, that's on that's on the culture of the place that you were working and hopefully you will find a better fit. You're so welcome. Hey, thank you, I really enjoyed this conversation and I hope that you did as well.

Keri (they/them): 50:27

I very much did. Thank you so much for having me.

Bryan (he/they): 50:29

Oh, it's my pleasure and thank you all for listening to this episode of teaching while queer. Bye. Thank you for joining us on this episode of teaching while queer. I hope you enjoyed it. If you did make sure to subscribe. Wherever you listen to your favorite podcast, leave a review, and that would help out tremendously. You can also support the podcast by going to www. teachingwhilequeer. com and hit support the show. Thanks so much and have a great day.