Embracing the Challenge: SJ Janjua on Being a Trans Educators

Bryan (he/they): 0:27

Teaching While Queer is 2SLGBTQIA+ podcast for educational professionals to share their experiences in academia. Hi, I'm your host, Bryan Stanton, a theater pedagogy and educator in New York City, and my goal is to share stories from around the world from 2SLGTQIA+ educators. I hope you enjoy Teaching While Queer. Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of Teaching While Queer. I am your host, Bryan Stanton. My pronouns are he/ they. I would like to take this opportunity to interview someone that I actually have the privilege of working with right now through an LGBTQ cohort, so we'll get into that a little bit later, but this is SJ Janjua. So sorry, I have a cold right now everyone, so I'm like breaking up my words here. Sj, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself?

SJ (they/them): 1:27

Hi everybody. So happy to be here with you today, Bryan, to talk a little bit more about Teaching While Queer and all that that encompasses. My name is SJ Janjua, my pronouns are they/ them, and I am the founder and consultant of Empowered for Equity Consulting, and I work with K through 12 schools and queer educators on DEI topics, mostly working with other teachers and administrators on creating more inclusive environments for LGBTQ plus youth.

Bryan (he/they): 2:05

I love that. I'm a huge fan of your work. I don't know if you all like have noticed, but we definitely like share each other's Instagram stuff. So if you are a listener and you are on our my Instagram, then you'll have to check out their Instagram as well. Anywho, let's not talk about Instagram, let's talk about you. Let's go on a journey back in time. Can you tell me what life was like for you as a queer youth?

SJ (they/them): 2:33

Totally yeah. So I didn't come out as queer or trans and non-binary until later in life, but I definitely always kind of felt like there was something different about me. I didn't really relate to my peers as much when I was young. I also grew up in a mixed race household. My dad is from Pakistan, my mom is from rural Missouri, so, as you can imagine, that was an experience in and of itself, and I'm a middle child, I have two siblings, and so life growing up was a lot of moving around. I think I moved eight times in the span of my childhood. My dad's a very ambitious person, and so it was always kind of like chasing his next dream, and so we moved around a lot. I lived in all kinds of different places within the US and I was always the new kid, which was really hard for me because I am and I'm not as much anymore. But when I was younger I was super shy and I'm very introverted. I was kind of a bookworm, and it was really difficult for me to make friends as I was moving and I was always the new kid everywhere that I went, and so I ended up forming bonds with my teachers in a different way, and so that kind of led me later in life to wanting to be a teacher. But also I also just felt really invisible in school and kind of felt like I didn't really know where I fit there. And I think a lot of that had to do with my queerness and my transness even though I couldn't really put those words, you know, together with how I was feeling at the time. I think I just felt like nobody really saw me for who I was and so that was really alienating and isolating. I was a really good student. I made like really good grades and I really loved learning. But I was also an athlete. I played a lot of different sports. So that was kind of like where I channeled a lot of that energy into was was excelling in those ways and kind of these feelings I was having about my gender and my sexuality. I kind of just ignored them or kind of pushed them down because I didn't really know how to deal with that at the time and didn't know how my parents would react to those types of things. And I definitely knew queer kids in high school but they got bullied a lot and it just didn't seem like it would have been an okay situation for me to come out at that time and I was still kind of figuring things out. So I didn't come out until much later. But I think I've always known these things about myself, but it just I didn't have the vocabulary, I didn't have the full understanding of what these things were yet.

Bryan (he/they): 5:41

For sure, absolutely, and I think that there's so many of us that kind of have that same story, especially, you know, people of a certain age, mainly people who grew up in an age where the vocabulary didn't exist or wasn't available to us. So there are a couple of things in an intersectionality that I find fascinating is that you mentioned that you're the child of an immigrant parent and that your dad was constantly chasing his new dream, and it just makes me think about that American dream that people strive for, and it's like a sales pitch to those who are immigrating here, and so that kind of intersectionality, coupled with this moving around and queerness, makes your story just such an interesting journey, because I think so many people have been sold on this idea that we have to, like, pursue this American dream. And you kind of watched, watch somebody do that, and I'm intrigued to see if you think that that played much into you, kind of your own experiences. You became an adult.

SJ (they/them): 6:56

Totally yeah, and when my dad, my dad immigrated to the US in the 80s and he came here with his brother, went to college here and he his dream was always to be a CEO of a company. He really wanted to reach that and he eventually did, but it took him a lot of climbing up the ladder to get there, and so that's what kind of moved us around a lot. But when he moved here I don't know if someone told him or before he left Pakistan, if someone told him about assimilation and how important that would be for him to really survive here, because he really didn't share his culture with us at all when I was growing up and even now you know he really he, you know, grew up Muslim and didn't end up really practicing at all. When he moved here, he definitely like tried to Americanize himself to be able to survive here, and so that is definitely something that has been difficult for me as I've grown older is like really being disconnected from half of who I am culturally, and so as an adult I've really had to make up a lot of lost time in terms of like learning about Pakistani culture, learning about South Asian culture and how that factors into the rest of my life and things of that nature. But I'm also a super ambitious person and I always have been, and I think that has been really ingrained in me and my siblings since we were really young. My mom came from a family not a wealthy family, you know a family that grew up, you know, middle class but also her parents were very poor in you know, when they were growing up, so she didn't have a ton when when she was growing up, and I think something that both of our parents have in common is that they wanted more for us and they wanted to be able to make the sacrifices necessary to provide a better life for their kids. And so I think that's something that has been ingrained in me too is that, like, sometimes sacrifices have to be made to be able to get to where you want to be in life and that it's good to be ambitious. It was. I grew up in a household where my parents were very strict about grades and school and education and there was no, not going to college. You know that was like they were. Like you're going to college, there's no other option, like that's what you're going to do and you're going to get a job and you know, do that and that's what you're going to do. And so I definitely think that the ambition from both of my parents really was ingrained at a young age for me, and I definitely still see it within me today.

Bryan (he/they): 9:57

Yeah, I think that's just something to be said about I don't know Late boomers, early gen X parents who are middle class, who have that desire, because I know my very my parents were very much like we want you all to be better and have better lives than us, and that's always been the thing. Now they call us jerks because we quote unquote think we're better than everybody else. Like well we were trained. But I think it's so fascinating because I think part of it is generational and then part of it comes from that like American dream standpoint, because I also think that that was heavy that during that time like when, when, like when when our parents were younger, for your mom and my parents when they were younger, like that was a heavy thing that was being sold, this idea of American dream. And now I think people are more cynical about it and so there's a deeper understanding that not all dreams are realistic. And also, like, how do you have 2.5 kids or whatever I will take an arm and a leg and half ahead Anywho how do you see your, your queerness kind of show up in your work and education?

SJ (they/them): 11:28

Yeah. So To go back a little bit, I started my career as a classroom teacher. I was a high school level English teacher. I taught in Oklahoma and in Texas. Texas is where I'm from, where I mostly grew up, because, again, I moved around a lot, but I was there the longest period of time in my childhood, so it's it's home to me. And so I taught in Oklahoma, texas, and I also taught abroad in Ecuador and Costa Rica. So I have like a very varied perspective on education just from my background. But started out as a high school level English teacher. I taught ninth and eleventh grade and I really loved it. But it took such a toll on my mental health that I was basically forced to leave the classroom Because I just I could. It was not sustainable for me mentally To continue doing it. And education is my passion and that's something that I always saw myself doing in some capacity. I didn't think at the beginning of my career that I was gonna be, you know, a 30-plus year teacher. I just didn't see that for myself. But I knew that I always wanted to be involved in education in some capacity because I understand the power of education and that has been something that has been there my whole life, and so I Think a part of that too, though, is that I wasn't able to be out when I was teaching in any of the circumstances in which I was teaching. I wasn't able to be out as queer, and then later as trans, and so that was a big, took a big toll on my mental health, because I wasn't able to be myself. I wasn't able to share my life with my students in the way that I wanted to and the way that my colleagues could. I couldn't talk about my partner at the time. I couldn't talk about you know, different aspects of my identity, and that was really kind of soul-crushing to me, because I Wanted to be so authentic with my students, because that's what I valued so much and so many of my teachers that I had growing up is like knowing who they were as people first and then as my teacher, and I wasn't really able to fully do that with my students, and it was really really difficult for me mentally to to deal with that basically, go into work every day and go back into the closet, and no one should have to do that, and no one should have to take parts of themselves and hide them away and then, you know, live their real lives outside of work like that should never be what happens. And so, after leaving the classroom, I went to grad school, I studied international education, ended up coming out as trans and Going through my social and medical transition and I knew I wanted to stay in education in some capacities. I moved to Tanzania for a little bit and that kind of was the catalyst for Me. Coming out as trans, I was like whoa, this is such a patriarchal society and like very Homophobic and just like a lot of different things. So I ended up leaving there early, earlier than anticipated, and that was the catalyst really for my transition. But I was doing teacher training there with an NGO and then I ended up Coming back to the US and working for an after-school program, which I still work for and also, you know, started my business earlier this year and I primarily work with schools on LGBTQ plus inclusion and with peer teachers and that is like my heart and soul on a platter. Like that's what I want to be doing with my life is is making Spaces more inclusive for kids that were like me, who didn't really understand their identity, or even kids that do understand their identity at younger ages, because we're seeing that more and more often now, because they have the vocabulary, they have the visibility and all of these things, and so I enjoy helping others Cultivate those spaces and really make those spaces, you know, identity safe spaces. And then also working with queer teachers, because I was a queer teacher and I understand the Difficult nature of that and it's even more difficult now because of the circumstances happening, you know, in the US with anti-trans legislation and Book banning and all these different things, all these different, you know laws that are being passed and things like that. So I really wanted to create spaces where Communities of queer teachers could come together and, as you mentioned earlier, I facilitate a cohort for queer teachers. It's a four month long cohort. This is the first one I've ever done, but I look forward to it so much and like our little group is just like my little family it feels like, and I just love being able to be in community with you all and it's definitely something that I want to continue to do in the future and have, you know, more spaces like that and Potentially do retreats or you know, conferences or things like that where we can all gather, because a big thing that has come out of the cohorts is that there's just not places for Connection for queer teachers, there's not places where we can all gather together and talk about our experiences and Troubleshoot and you know all these different things that we really, really need, because I know I didn't have that when I was a teacher and I'm still hearing from people now that there aren't spaces like that. So I really am glad that I'm able to facilitate those spaces and I want to keep doing that in bigger and bolder ways, moving forward. But yeah, I Don't think I answered your question, or maybe I did, but you got lost somewhere in there.

Bryan (he/they): 17:36

I mean the. The reality of the situation is that our queerness is a part of us and so it shows up in everything that we do. You've touched on, like, other questions as well, so we'll we'll kind of navigate through that in a bit. I had an interview earlier the season with, like Lynn's Amor from kids stuff, and they were asking me you know, what is it that people can do, like what can my organization do to help queer teachers? And I was like what's lacking is queer community, like queer teacher communities. They don't really exist. And like I'm a part of an NEA LGBTQ I don't think it's a cohort, something else. But it's part of the National Education Association and it's like a newsletter with like updates about laws and I'm like, well, you know, that's Just like HRC and all those other nonprofit organizations where there actually is in a sense of community. So I love what you're doing because you do get to connect with people and talk about things that are relevant to what people are experiencing in the moment, and so let's dive a little bit into kind of like In your own experience. You had mentioned that there was kind of this covert anti-queer behavior in the sense that, like, you did not Feel empowered to be yourself in any of your school settings? Were there other instances of anti-queer behavior that you witnessed as an educator, when you were working in public schools, or even now that you are working as a freelance educational like consultant? Do you experience that as you're going through your work now totally.

SJ (they/them): 19:24

Yeah, I mean, I think a big part of Previously when I was teaching, like the anti-queer behavior like you said. It's like very covert. It's not even like someone saying homophobic things to me or transphobic things to me on a day-to-day basis or anything like that. It's very like in what people think, or subtle, you know, micro aggressive behaviors and things like that. I remember when I was teaching I had like a picture at the time of my, you know, my partner at the time and I on my desk and I Remember a student like picking it up one time, being like who is this? And I just was like my heart just sank because I was like I don't even know what to say because I'm so afraid that if I Tell the truth in this moment and I say who this person is to me that like Parents are gonna be upset and they're gonna be writing to the school because their kids are gonna come home and tell them that you know their teacher is queer and all this stuff or Administration is gonna find out and then I'm gonna be punished in some way For that or fired, or you know, we hear these things all the time teachers being fired for having a pride flag in their classroom or you know reading a book with you know queer character in it or you know things like that. And even you know, years ago, when I was teaching, those fears were still there, but it was definitely very covert in the way that those things were happening to me and a lot of it was just me not wanting to lose my job and not wanting to to have to face that you know, covert or overt hate in any way, shape or form as a teacher and as a human. So that's definitely. I Didn't really have anything that was like super, like pointed, but definitely you know people asking me questions about who I was dating and and things like that which, like I had to lie about or like you know things like that. So I definitely didn't have anything Really pointed. But I did have students that I mean I always say this because I think it's true but like queer students can tell that you're queer, like they know, you know, and so I definitely had queer and trans students that like I think, knew, you know, but they they were, they didn't say anything and they were, you know, they, they could recognize. You know that I was uncomfortable in that setting to be able to like speak on those things. So they definitely there were definitely queer students that knew I was queer, but they just they knew that I wasn't able to talk about it there Because probably they're also dealing with that in different ways. But in my work now, especially in working with schools and especially working this year specifically with schools, there has been a number of schools that I started working with and and they hire me to do a workshop with their teachers or they hire me to, you know, come in and work with them on policies and procedures for, you know, name changes or things like that for their students, or even talking to parents about gender, and We'll start working together and then things start to get closer and closer to the workshop and then they want to change things. They're like, actually can we talk about belonging? Actually can we talk about these other things? And it's like that's all very important too. I also do workshops on belonging and anti-racism in the classroom and you know different things, like to work on LGBT, you know Q stuff, and then you're, like last minute, wanting to change the complete topic of everything we're talking about. There's this fear around it and they don't want to offend me because they know, like I'm queer and trans and I'm very open about that with my clients and they don't want to offend me by saying we're uncomfortable talking about this, or the parents are going to be uncomfortable that we had this training, or we're scared about lives of TikTok, or we're scared about, you know, these different groups that are publishing the names of schools on their website that are doing these trainings or that are talking about these topics or implementing these policies and things like that. So there's definitely a lot of fear and I've experienced that firsthand with people being like, actually, can we switch things? And I've even had people full on cancel contracts with me, specifically this year, because there is so much fear around doing the right thing. Unfortunately and it really breaks my heart because it's when they're cancelling these things and they're changing things last minute and divesting from what they originally wanted to work on, it's only disadvantaging their students I mean, at the end of the day and the queer teachers that exist there and all of those groups. So it's been hard to navigate, especially this year for some reason. You know it's really. I think you know getting closer to the election year has been difficult and you know all the hate that's cropping up and all that like I think it's just made things really difficult for schools and I understand. But I also sometimes wish schools would just forget about all that and do do what's best for their students, because it's not only benefiting their LGBTQ plus students, but it's benefiting all of their students to create more inclusive environments and have these policies in place in the long run.

Bryan (he/they): 25:14

Yeah, I agree with you entirely because I struggle with this idea of, like we want to change, we're going to make changes and then we're going to have it a complete about face. I experienced that at a school district that I worked for and it was really disheartening because I thought that school is headed in a good direction and it's funny because we moved and that school has a reputation, where it is, of being like the place to go. But, like, since this about face that they've taken, they're like great schools rating keeps dropping and dropping and dropping, and I'm just like here's the thing about inclusion Everybody benefits and when you are making statements and when you are making choices that exclude, then people will take notice and it's going to impact all the other areas of your school. It's not just going to impact the social side of school, it's going to impact the academic side, because if people don't feel included, they are going to disengage. When they disengage, you're going to see that show up in academics.

SJ (they/them): 26:21

Totally 100%.

Bryan (he/they): 26:23

I have a conference I'll be teaching in November where I was basically told in this episode airs in February. So I have a conference that I taught at in November, for all of you who are listening. But this conference, when I sent in my original description, they loved everything about it except its weirdness and they're like is there a way for us to talk about identity and be more inclusive or change the wording so that everybody, everybody knows what you mean? But like can we just change the wording so that way it doesn't? Because they were worried literally about that kind of social media attack happening in nonprofit organizations. Like, to some extent, I understand that it can make or break your business, but I also think that if you're a nonprofit organization who's focused on developing strong values in people, you need to stand up and show that you have strong values. So ultimately I ended up changing the whole thing and just said like great, why don't I come and just talk about identity then and not focus on this one thing, which is fine and I'm okay doing it? I'll just make that one thing a part of it Because I think there's more to be said about identity in the classroom in general and I'm okay with that. Yeah but it's super frustrating to me that, like queer people are so taboo that we can't even show up on like one course offering a three day conference. I know without a huge blow up happening.

SJ (they/them): 28:13

Yeah, and I mean it's, it's ridiculous and it's becoming more pervasive. I you know, I'm seeing it at conferences to, because I also speak at conferences and I'm seeing that and seeing people asking the same thing, like can you just make it about inclusion, or you know, and it's like I can, but do I want to do that? No, I want to talk about queerness. I want to talk about, you know, how amazing it is to have queer students and how amazing it is that there are queer teachers that work at your school and what that you know being, what, being like loud and proud about how inclusive you are and that you're doing these things, like what an amazing way to show your students, like how much you care about who they are, and it's just, it's really disheartening and I don't think it's going to be something that stops anytime soon Just because of how vitriolic you know the world is right now. But it is extremely disheartening and again only hurting the students when you know they're they're not all in on these things like they should be.

Bryan (he/they): 29:30

Absolutely. So let's talk a little bit about your business. What? What is your goal for your business like? What do you want people? What is the change you hope to make?

SJ (they/them): 29:43

Yeah, so I think you know what I spoke about a little bit earlier is that I want to do what I love every day, and for me, that is working in education. That is working to make spaces more inclusive, specifically for LGBTQ plus students, but also for everyone and to work with queer teachers, because I want to be able to create spaces that I didn't have access to throughout my life. So I want to do what I love every day and for me, that is working in education. That is working to make spaces more inclusive, specifically for LGBTQ plus students, but also for everyone and to work with queer teachers, because I want to be able to create spaces that I didn't have access to throughout my life. So as a student, as a queer student and then also as a queer teacher and a trans teacher, I didn't have those communities and those spaces to be able to, to gather and be in community with people that were having similar experiences to me. So, for me, empowered for equity is is about empowering people to create these spaces that are more inclusive and helping people cultivate the tools that they need in order to do that. And so when I work with schools, a lot of the time, you know there are teachers that are really invested in doing this and in, you know, making sure that they know all of their students pronouns and they, you know, have a policy in their classroom for if a student comes to them and says I want to change my name, you know, I want you to call me this name from now on. And I also, like, as a queer teacher this was pre coming out as trans I had trans students that didn't know how to communicate with me about those things, and so I could sense that they maybe wanted to talk about these things. But also I was uneducated at the time, you know, as as somebody who was queer, like I didn't fully understand gender until a little bit later and like I didn't start really like diving into that a little bit later. So, and so some of the schools I worked at didn't have policies for these types of things, and so there are a lot of gaps that need to be filled in that way. So I also work with nonprofits, that that serve youth, so after school programs, summer camps, things like that, and so I do feel like there's a real need in youth spaces for this kind of, you know, inclusion training, because we're just seeing so many more kids at younger ages really understanding their gender in different ways, and so it's because of visibility and because of, you know, having the language and things like that now. So it's really vital and it's really needed that we have, you know, this kind of training available to people, because, if not, that's going to force kids back into the closet. That's going to do sometimes a reputable damage, and then it's also, you know, it's a little bit more logical to students who were children, who are, you know, facing difficult situations at home and things like that. Like you and I both know that you know, having supportive adults and a child's life whether that's a teacher, you know, an after or a coach on your team or whatever, or a parent or a caregiver of some sort is vital to, like you know, so many aspects of development for children, and so I want to be able to impact how many you know adults we have out there that can take on that role in a way that is not damaging to LGBTQ plus youth, because it's really good to educate and it's great to have the knowledge, but it's all about what you do with that knowledge. So it's great if you know what LGBTQ plus stands for. But if you're not applying that to what you're doing in life, then you know you're not. You're not doing anything with the tools that you have and the knowledge that you have. So for me it's all about empowering that action and being active in ways that they can shape spaces, specifically because I think it's pretty amazing that as teachers, we have the ability to cultivate space. You know, we get to say this is what flies in my classroom and this is what doesn't. You know, these are the things that are really important to me as a teacher and in cultivating this space for my students, and I think that's an amazing privilege to have. But some teachers haven't had training and don't have the education in. You know how to do that. So for me my business is really rooted in what I didn't have and, you know, making ways and spaces for others like me to have those things.

Bryan (he/they): 35:06

Absolutely. There's a lot that you just mentioned that's just gotten me like spiraling into a bunch of side quests. I'm going to try to focus myself here. One thing that you mentioned was just like it's great that you know that, what the acronym means, but it means nothing if you're not putting in that stuff into action. And it's funny because the only reason I'm going to this conference, or that I went to this conference in the metaverse that I'm living in, is because I teach lessons at my schools that I work in that center on. It's not enough to know what a value statement means. It has to be put into action, and like teaching young people, whether they're in elementary, middle school or high school, how to take a value like humility or perseverance or whatever your school's values are and put them into action. Because I watch my children memorize these really cute songs that teach them these words and what they mean, but they have no idea how to display it and like. It's great that you know that integrity means doing the right thing when nobody's looking. How do you do that? Like, what do you have to do within yourself to do that? And so it's interesting because I have that same kind of like teaching method when it comes to values that you're talking about. When it comes to specifically like working with the queer community. The other thing I wanted to jump into is that you want to work with queer teachers and say you're working with a queer teacher who is going into education. They're just getting started and they are unsure how to show up authentically in their educational space. But, like you explained that you know you knew you weren't going to be a 30 year teacher. Maybe this teacher believes they're going to be a 30 year teacher.

SJ (they/them): 37:04

Yeah.

Bryan (he/they): 37:05

So, like, what advice do you give to them about going into the classroom and trying to show up authentically?

SJ (they/them): 37:11

Yeah, I think I would tell them to do what feels right for them. I think sometimes in the queer community in general, I think there is pressure sometimes to be out and proud, and there's nothing wrong with that, of course. But I think that, especially in the world that we're living in right now, you have to protect your peace like at all costs as a teacher, but also as a human, and I think that it's great to be that visibility for your students and to be out and proud in your classroom. But I think that also you have to remember your safety and you have to remember that this, especially if it's a long term career for you, that you have to think about years down the road, what that's going to mean for you. So I think, although it's awesome to be out and proud and to really show up in that authentic way, I think there's a lot to think about. You have to think about many different things now and I wish we didn't have to. I really wish that we could just be who we are and it wouldn't matter. But there's a lot of different factors that come into play and I think just do what feels right for you If you feel comfortable. You know first week of school talking to your students about it. If you, you know, feel it out the first couple days and you're like okay, I feel comfortable, then like great more power to you. But it's also okay to like take a year to get settled and get adjusted in your school and really find who your allies are there and who you can confide in. But also like it's okay to not be out. It's okay to not, it's not like something that's damaging to you. You know, in your career, if you choose to not be out from the jump, like you can ease into it. It doesn't have to be all in at once and it doesn't have to be from the very first day or you feel like you can't do it. You can spread it out. It doesn't have to be all at once. Everybody knows, and it can be that way too if you want it to be, but it's. I think it's just important to think about lots of different factors but also realize that it's okay to ease into it. It doesn't have to be all at once. You can kind of feel things out and see and also that, like your experience could be completely different at a different school. I think that's something that, like, no one really told me when I first started teaching, like, how different your experience can be as a teacher from district to district and school to school, because I had very different experiences, even from Texas and Oklahoma, which, like, are not that different culturally. So it I had very different experiences and the expectations of teachers and just different, different things there. So also realize that, like, you might not be at this school forever and that there will be maybe other opportunities for you to be authentic in the way you want to be down the road or, you know, next year even, or in a few months or whatever, but I think ultimately it's your decision and you shouldn't have to feel forced to do that.

Bryan (he/they): 40:50

Yeah, yeah, I agree with you. There's a couple of things that have happened in the interview that I think are worth like noting that you've mentioned. The first one is that you mentioned that you were a queer teacher and you had transgender students and you weren't sure, like, how to help them with the questions that they needed to ask yourself and other teachers, or like how to approach that conversation. And so that's one thing I want to say to educators out there, especially queer educators, is that there is this expectation that you will be able to be that person like the encyclopedia of all things queer, and that you're going to be able to get every conversation in every situation correct. And I just want to let you know that it's okay if you don't, and it's okay if you don't have all that information, because I feel I can like think of a handful of queer related conversations that I've had with high school students where I was like I could have handled that better and and I was, you know, specifically sought out because I was the queer person the queer person, and I think it's also okay to be a queer person who does not feel the need to wave the banner and be the savior of all queer people, because you have to do what makes you feel comfortable, and that's kind of like where I see this last response going. Is that like, ultimately, it really comes down to you and your comfort and knowing that, like, being a 30 year teacher doesn't mean being a 30 year teacher at this school? Yeah, there, there are lots of opportunities that may approach in the future and especially for those of us who are, like you know, millennials who consistently change jobs or stereotypically change jobs, there's lots of opportunity for us. So, like, look around, you might find a place that's perfect. I'm intrigued to know, or I'm excited for this next question, because it seems like it's right in your wheelhouse and, and that is, what do you think that school communities can do to be more inclusive of two s lgbtq plus people?

SJ (they/them): 43:07

I think the answer to this is part of what we've talked about in the cohort that I'm facilitating and that you're a participant in is that we need community, we need spaces to gather and that's not just, like you said, a newsletter or mentioning that it's national coming out day, or of course, those things are important, but that's not what builds a community. That's. I think that, specifically, districts could do a lot more in terms of supporting queer teachers and queer students. But I have also had the opportunity to work with some districts here in Maryland I'm in the Baltimore area Some independent schools that have a conference every year for, specifically for queer teachers. They have a conference specifically for queer students and all students to come to. That's centered around inclusion, specific to LGBTQ plus inclusion, and I think that that's a great example of ways that you know this could be handled. Of course, one conference is not going to change everything, but I think that it's important to include everybody in this conversation and to really help rally everyone around this type of inclusion. So I think that that's one thing is just creating more space for, you know, beyond GSA is or beyond affinity groups or things like that. Those are great, but I think there are a lot of other opportunities out there that schools are just not taking advantage of. But I also think something you talked about earlier is that, like, you shouldn't expect queer teachers to know the answer to everything that has to do with queerness, and that's also why you should hire consultants like me, because then you're taking the burden off of your queer teachers to do the education of you know, your entire staff, about what it means to be queer and what it means to be a teacher. You know I have dealt with that a lot and a lot of different workplaces that I've worked in. You know I've been the only trans person in quite a few places that I've worked, and anytime someone has an unsolicited question about what something trans, they, you know, come to me and they want, you know want me to, you know, give them the answer to the question or talk them through whatever, and it's. It puts a huge burden on that person, you know, on the staff, to the staff member or the teacher or whatever to educate, and that's not our job to do that. So that's why more schools should hire consultants like me, so that I can do the educating instead of having that burden be put on, you know staff that happened to fall into these communities, and that goes for LGBTQ plus community. You know the black community different. You know ethnicities and race communities like there. This happens, you know, to anybody in that way. So I think that's another step is just really not being afraid to be bold about inclusion, and specifically queer inclusion and things that maybe might seem scary right now to talk about, but I think it's so vital that we talk about these things with staff, but also with students. I think it's incredibly important and I'm just not seeing a lot of push for that right now. So that's the third thing is just you know making sure that you are doing the work and putting these things into action and not just we have one workshop one time and that's it. This is a continuing process. It's not something you can just Okay, well, now I know everything about. You know what it means to be queer, because one person came and did an hour and a half workshop, or I went to a conference and I, you know, sat in on a session that was about identity. Now I know everything about that. I don't need to do any more work. So I think really truly being an ally means, you know putting that into action, the knowledge that you're getting. So I think all of those things are very important and I think at the crux of what all that is is action. You know it's not just you know having one. You know not not sending out an email once a year that says, like happy Pride Month. You know it's. It's a much deeper thing than that. Your action has to be consistent. Your action has to be consistent that's another part that I try to really stress when I work with schools is like this has to be a consistent thing. It can't just be one time you do it this way and the next time you handle it a different way. You know it really needs to be, it needs to become part of your practice as a school, as a teacher, as an administrator. But I think action is the bottom line of all of this. There you have to do something with the knowledge that you have.

Bryan (he/they): 48:23

Absolutely, and if someone wanted to hire a consultant like yourself, how would they? Go about finding you.

SJ (they/them): 48:31

Yeah, so they can find consultants in a lot of different ways. What?

Bryan (he/they): 48:36

I'm talking about you specifically.

SJ (they/them): 48:38

Oh, me specifically.

Bryan (he/they): 48:39

Okay, free commercial.

SJ (they/them): 48:41

Yay, okay, thanks for the plug. So if they wanted to find me, there are a couple different ways they can do that, one of which is go to my website, which is wwwempoweredforequitycom, and book a discovery call with me. It's very easy. There's a big button on my website that says book a call with me and you can do that, and my email is also on my website, so you could just also reach out via email. My social media is pretty pop in. I usually post on there when I am accepting new clients. You know I do anything from single. You know workshops an hour. I do full day workshops with schools. I do speaking engagements. I work with GSA is doing workshops for queer kids at. You know GSA is an affinity groups, but a lot of my bookings actually come from word of mouth, mostly word of mouth in Maryland, just because I've worked with you know quite a few Maryland schools and so what happens with that is I'll do a workshop somewhere and then, you know, usually the DEI director or principal or whoever I've been working with will talk to their friends and say, hey, we have this really great workshop. You know you should think about hiring SGA for a workshop at your school or to, you know, work on a longer term project, because I also work on, you know, strategic planning support and things like that. So I've had contracts go for two years and things like that. So there are definitely different ways that my name gets put out there, but the main way is really just, you know, finding me on social media, which my Instagram handle is at empowered for equity. You can also find me on LinkedIn. It's just my name, sj J Angela. You can search that. But, yeah, those are the ways to get in contact with me. I'm also part of this collective that's called co-creative or learning. Co-created is what it's called, and it's basically a platform for administrators and teachers to find people who do professional development, and there are all kinds of different topics on there. There's a couple of people who do LGBT Q plus inclusion stuff. There are some people that do anti racism training for schools. There's people that do you know how to integrate STEM and like ed tech and all these different things on there, but it's basically a marketplace for administrators and teachers to go on there and say, hey, this person looks like they, you know, did a workshop on this really creative thing and I want to bring them to my school. It's called learning co-created. You can just Google that and I'm a person on there that you can book through there and you just mess it. You can just message me on there. But it's great. I want to plug that because it's an amazing resource and I don't think that many people know about it, but there are a lot of great consultants on there that do really amazing work, so it's a great place to find PD opportunities.

Bryan (he/they): 52:01

Perfect, I love that. Thank you for all the resources. I'll make sure those are in the show notes. At this point I'm going to turn the microphone over to you and you have the opportunity to ask me a question, so take it away.

SJ (they/them): 52:12

Awesome, I think. My question is what do you think needs to happen in order to create safer school environments for queer kids and queer teachers?

Bryan (he/they): 52:30

I think that there needs to be more descriptive, definitive language and laws. Currently, when it comes to workplace rights for LGBTQ people, gender identity and sexual orientation fall under sex discrimination. Equated to like you know, does a woman get paid the same or less? Than a man in that kind of category and I think that there needs to be more definitive language that says that, like disability and age and race and sex and class, that gender identity and sexual orientation are definitive protected classes and that information in that language needs to also be applied to Title IX, to apply to school settings. And here's the thing folks like the Civil Rights Act in 1964 is what I'm talking about, and that's where Title VII comes in, and that's what protects people from getting fired because of who they are right, and so there were Supreme Court cases several years ago that made it illegal to fire people just for being queer, and that's really fantastic, but there are loopholes to it because it goes through a Supreme Court case, right, the government needs to stand up and take a stand and say that this is the definitive language and we are protecting these people. Once that happens, I think that it will be easier for school districts to implement protective measures for LGBTQ people, because the fear is, especially in places like Texas, that, like literally, the government's going to come after you if you are protecting queer people, because the government is saying we're going to come after you if you're protecting queer people. And so if we have these laws set in place that are definitive and clear because, as Brene Brown says, clear is kind then we will be at a place where, then, local rules can be definitive and clear and more protection can take place. Beyond that, I think you're absolutely correct in that every child and every teacher needs to know that there is a space for them and a community for them to be in, and I've been that one queer teacher or one out queer teacher in the past, and it is a very lonely road and you still find your people, but it is different than finding your people, and so I think that there are lots of us that are kind of working towards this, and my philosophy in watching, like queer groups, specifically in areas that I've lived in, where they're all trying to do the same thing but none of them are working together, is that, like, organizations need to come together and create space together, yeah, and so, like, how do we make that happen? Because, having a community, a cohort, working through you, and then also another community here and another community here, well, it's great to have all these communities, but, like, we only have so much time, and what if we could all better utilize our resources by working together? And so I think that, like, from a nonprofit organization perspective, and that it would be who people to work together to create these communities that are so necessary? Because, like I mean, in the educational setting, there are full on black colleges. In the educational setting, there are religious schools, there are lots of communities that are being created for specific people, and we shouldn't be different. So that's it, that's what I got.

SJ (they/them): 56:53

It's pretty lofty goal, but I think it's completely possible. I think everything you said is possible and I think that I'm going to start to think about how I can work with others. I'm more just thinking about what you just said, like how I can work more with others who are also trying to move in this direction, you know, especially you know with the cohort, future cohorts, and you know things like that, because I'm sure there are others that are wanting to do similar things or, you know, have done similar things. But as one person, I only have so much capacity, you know. So it would be great to have a team of people to work with. So anybody out there that's listening, if you are interested in that, let me know and let's see how we can collaborate and work together towards making this a more solid thing in the lives of many people that really need it.

Bryan (he/they): 57:52

Ooh, I put myself on mute. Yes, absolutely so I just I want to echo that in that, like I will join you in that and we will have a side conversation some other time about it, but I also want to thank you for your time being on the podcast today. I've really enjoyed our time working together and also our time just getting to sit and chat and know you a little bit better today.

SJ (they/them): 58:17

Me too. Thank you so much for having me.

Bryan (he/they): 58:19

It was my pleasure and thank you all for listening at home. I hope you have an amazing day. Thank you for joining us on this episode of Teaching While Queer. I hope you enjoyed it. If you did, make sure to subscribe. Wherever you listen to your favorite podcast, leave a review and that would help out tremendously. You can also support the podcast by going to www. teachingwhilequeer. com and hit support the show. Thanks so much and have a great day.