Embracing Authenticity and Courage: Am're Ford on Being Queer in Conservative Classrooms and Revolutionizing Music Education

Bryan (he/they): 0:27

Teaching While Queer is a podcast for 2S LGBTQIA+ educational professionals to share their experiences in academia. Hi, I'm your host, Bryan Stanton, a theater pedagogy and educator in New York City, and my goal is to share stories from around the world from 2S LGBTQIA+ educators. I hope you enjoy Teaching While Queer. Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Teaching While Queer. I am your host, Bryan Stanton. My pronouns are he/ they, and today I would get to pleasure of working with a fellow musician and speaking with a fellow musician. I'd like to introduce you all to Am're Ford. Hi, Am're, how are you doing?

Am're (he/him): 1:13

I'm doing well. How are you, Bryan?

Bryan (he/they): 1:15

I'm doing great. Thank you, I'm so excited that you're able to join me this evening. Do you mind telling everybody a little bit about yourself?

Am're (he/him): 1:22

Sure, my name is Am're, my pronouns are he/ him. I'm from Oklahoma City, oklahoma. I'm born and raised there. I've been in music all of my life, in church all of my life. We could get to that, I guess, a little bit later, but yeah, I went to a performing arts high school and I knew from the time I was in third grade that I wanted to be a teacher. And then I had this really cool kind of like right out of grad school teacher and I was like, oh, I can teach music and it can be fun. So I went to school, major in education at the last second, switched to performance, got a music composition degree. I got a master's in that, then came back and kind of took the alternative route to classroom teaching, since a lot of my my college coursework was in education. So I taught public school for three years and then private school for two years and then now I am the conductor of a youth orchestra in North Tulsa, which is a part of Tulsa that's predominantly in historic B-blad.

Bryan (he/they): 2:41

That's awesome. I appreciate your journey so much because I, as a music student in college, also took the music education to performance route. I feel, like maybe these music ed programs need to kind of assess what's going on, because a ton of us are switching over to performance and then finding our way back to teaching, as it were. But I'm like kindred spirits, I know so many people so many people who have done that kind of route where they're. I was going to be a choral conductor. I like that was my my drive. I was going to be a choir director, and then I started focusing on performance and got my degree in performance and then ended up in theater, because that was really what my passion was, and so it's really funny that, like, this route kind of exists for a lot of music majors, as it were. So for those of you who are listening, who are getting ready for you know college, remember that the plan can change. Yeah so let's talk a little bit about what was like for you as a queer student. You grew up in Oklahoma, which is you know, at least from what I understand is a very conservative space, so what? Was it like for you as a queer student.

Am're (he/him): 4:03

Yeah, it was. I think. Now that I look back like kind of scary growing up black and like my grandfather was a pastor and like started a church, so that's like a whole other thing, that's like part of this conversation as well, and I think that there may be still parts of me that, presented like, is like what is like the word that you can say to that might make something obvious or like stereotype, just obvious.

Bryan (he/they): 4:49

It's not inconspicuous. Yeah, so they're like you know there are parts that presented that way.

Am're (he/him): 4:58

But yeah, it just wasn't like a safe space and really up through graduate school like I went to graduate school in Greensboro, north Carolina.

Bryan (he/they): 5:14

Oh yeah, you know.

Am're (he/him): 5:15

Pretty far from. Oklahoma. It's the only school that I applied to. I got in and I went and it's interesting, like when I met there's some friends that I met while I lived there and when we talked now they had no idea that I was like quote-unquote in the positive, because when I got to Greensboro I was just like really living, I didn't care, especially once. I like worked through the shame and all of it. I was just like, okay, like this is what it is. So, yeah, that was kind of the point where I'm just like this is who I am and you can take it or leave it. But if you leave it, please like leave now.

Bryan (he/they): 5:59

Does that shame derive from the church?

Am're (he/him): 6:06

Yeah, I mean I heard a very homophobic rhetoric that allegedly it's the way that they interpreted the Bible, and so it's also helped to kind of learn that there's a lot more context and some of the context means that people just put homosexual in there, like 60 years ago or something like that. So once I discovered that I was like, oh, this is like, don't talk to me, because if you can't put that context together we can't have a conversation. So yeah, that was also that helped to aid in my liberation, if you will.

Bryan (he/they): 6:54

Yeah, for sure I know I've talked to a lot of people about just kind of that intersectionality of religion and sexuality and kind of how that makes growing up more difficult, and I am lucky that I did not have to have that experience. I also talked with someone last year who said that her brother struggled with coming out because there was this like a triple intersectionality within their family, which was the idea of masculinity in the black community as well as church, and then, you know, being a queer person, he had this kind of like trifecta of issues to work through and and most of the stuff isn't even from him. It's not like his, his baggage, it's like the world's baggage. You know what I mean.

Am're (he/him): 7:51

Yeah, and I think even recently I've thought about like some of the ways that they impacted me. Um, like my best friend got married. He asked me to be his best man. I was like, oh, but like I need to let you know, like I'm gay. He was like okay, so I still want you to be my best man. And looking back, I'm like why did I think that he was going to be? Like yeah, you can't be my best man because you're gay. Woops, internalize, yeah.

Bryan (he/they): 8:28

Yeah, absolutely Internalize homophobia is such a weird thing too, because it's like it is us kind of like taking societal messages and believing them, you know, and I think that's that's one of the things that drives me crazy right now is that, like so much of the world is saying that, like our sexuality and our gender identity are who we are, it's 100% of who we are. And that's the kind of situation that you are in, that you are like, oh gosh, this is who I am. And because this is who I am then and it's not who they thought I was, like everything's going to be different.

Am're (he/him): 9:06

But really this is just like a portion, a small part of our identity. Yeah, and like even I think that concept I've kind of struggled with for a while because it's like a part of me, but it's a part of me that is like that's hacked a lot. So then it's like, well, it's a small part, so should I be talking a whole lot about it, or you know, just kind of finding the balance. But I think even that right is like an internalized message about like what I should be speaking up about and how I should feel, and yeah, Well thinking about your experiences as a child.

Bryan (he/they): 9:47

How has that impacted you as an educator?

Am're (he/him): 9:50

Yeah, I think I tend to lean on the side of Grace to figure out, like what's going on, because I can think of I mean instances even where maybe I wasn't the focus of like the attention, but I knew kind of like the context of what was happening and I don't know. I think I've just been able to see things that I've been able to see that in experience, like I don't think as a child, like from adults that I receive like homophobic, like words or which you know, grateful for that, but I tend to be kind and like give students a chance to develop the muscle that I feel like a lot of us don't like have a chance to like develop these skills that we say we want students to develop and it's like, okay, they got to practice those skills, but we don't give them a chance to practice. And then they become an adult and it's like all right, you're an adult now. Why are you still doing that? So I spent a lot of time recently just like trying to give students the space and ask questions that get them to come over the solutions that they can implement, you know, without me having to always be the one controlling the things, and sometimes it is a little, a little terse, even recently, like in my, in my orchestra. It's essentially a classroom with like 12 kids from different places, some that I taught before and some that I haven't and I'm just like y'all this, is this a little chaotic Like, don't you agree? Okay, we all have to do something different, including me, because I can't do this. I also do not yell when I talk to my students. I talk to like this when I'm happy with them, there's a little bit more excitement and brightness, but, yeah, and I try to remember that they are also humans and to like treat them with kindness and respect. And yeah, those are the things that I think really probably experiences in my childhood that reflect or help to shape some of my views now as an educator.

Bryan (he/they): 12:46

So, as a conductor and educator, have you ever had to deal with anti queer behavior, whether it was in one of your orchestras or ensembles, or a parent or community member?

Am're (he/him): 12:59

Oh, I have it right here, so this is poster.

Bryan (he/they): 13:08

The poster for everybody who is listening, says in this classroom, we believe the black lives matter. Love is love. Science is real feminism. I can't read the bottom of it. My glasses are off, so you want to go on, yeah.

Am're (he/him): 13:21

Feminism is for everyone. Humans are not illegal. Kindness is everything.

Bryan (he/they): 13:26

It's a beautiful poster.

Am're (he/him): 13:28

Yeah. So a friend of mine in the building was like, hey, I bought this, you want me to get one for you. So you know, get the whole thing. And there were maybe there were some other people that I discovered also had the poster. And the reason that I knew that they also have the posters because we had a meeting about the post.

Bryan (he/they): 13:49

Of course.

Am're (he/him): 13:51

Because there were things on the poster that certain people didn't agree with. And when their kid came home it's like oh no, we can't have this so literally like a meeting with the eight teachers that had the poster. Just like, really like. This is the pain.

Bryan (he/they): 14:15

It's so funny to me because it's like people are so afraid of a poster or a flag or something like it's what we're teaching, Like you're going into your orchestra and you aren't teaching the students how to read or play music. You are teaching them what's on this poster. It's literally a poster Like it's a piece of paper and it gets so much power right now it's mind boggling.

Am're (he/him): 14:49

And it's a poster that reinforces that like we should treat people like human beings, like all the people, not just the ones that we like or just the ones with money, like all of the humans. So the fact that. That is the thing that is like ruffling your feathers. Maybe it's you, it's not me.

Bryan (he/they): 15:13

Yep, and you know what's interesting to me is, right before I left Texas, they passed the law like, for my last school year teaching there, there was a law passed that is, if someone donated a poster that said in God, we trust, as long as it had the American flag on it, it had to be posted in wherever you know, like if the school was given 12, they have to post the 12 up or whatever. And then there's a new law that was being passed that was like all the 10 commandments need to be put up in every classroom and I was like y'all, this is not how education works. Like man, if I could teach my students just from the posters on my wall, I would be sitting back doing nothing all day because I wouldn't have to do the work. The posters did it for me. Like, this is just not how educational works, folks.

Am're (he/him): 16:12

And that's also not how indoctrination works.

Bryan (he/they): 16:15

Like you're not even doing it right. Right, it's like in. The funny part is that they are doing it right elsewhere, but they are doing it like trying to sneak things into the school and it's like you know how it works and and literally what we're teaching is not. It's not how that works. Presenting history is not indoctrination. Reading a book that includes black people or queer people is not indoctrination. It's just like the reality of the world. Yeah.

Am're (he/him): 16:48

And that's like again, with Oklahoma being very conservative even like we had a student that I had an eighth grade and then they went to the high school. So we, you know, work with all the kids and once they got to high school they started to transition and I think, use he pronouns. Previously they use she and like. There was one time when the student wasn't there and they use like the wrong pronouns and I was like, oh wait, like I thought that was he and they're like oh, I was like really not cool. Yeah, you know, when he's not here, you decide to use another pronoun and then you don't know.

Bryan (he/they): 17:38

But even a child.

Am're (he/him): 17:39

Yeah, it was the teacher. That's the one.

Bryan (he/they): 17:43

We're supposed to be teaching these kids to have integrity and whatnot? It's like folks won't even follow it on their own.

Am're (he/him): 17:52

But what I found like, especially here, is that there's a lot of people that have never had to, in a meaningful way, engage with people that are different from them and they've just been able to navigate and kind of like, you know, wiggle through stuff and I'm just like, babe, I need you to have a seat and really like think this through because, like you say, like we're educators, please, please, like less, less use those brain cells and think about this.

Bryan (he/they): 18:34

Yeah, and there's some things that are just mind boggling.

Am're (he/him): 18:39

Yeah.

Bryan (he/they): 18:41

I think about like primary sources and this is just like a cultural shift. I guess that's happening and how. When I was in high school I was taught that like primary sources were where it was at. If you wanted to say that you researched something, you went to the original document or like the one degree of separation from that original document and like nowadays. I feel like anything's game to be factual. Quote, unquote information.

Am're (he/him): 19:15

Yeah, I saw something recently. We're like I think it's a journalist or someone was saying that before they would post about something they would check, like you know, two or three sources, and now they're checking five or six because, like anything is considered a source, because you know, there's so much access to creating things which you know like there's the creative part of it and for some people it's really good. But like be living in an age where everybody has a platform and there are pros and there's some kinds Yep, it's interesting.

Bryan (he/they): 20:02

I was watching the news earlier. I mean, nowhere, I was to watch the news, but I was watching the news Maybe it was the gym and they said that the president had just like signed a new executive order in relation to artificial intelligence and the use of AI. Right, and the big takeaway from the news was that too many images are being created and then like marketed as real, but they are being created by computer programming. Full videos and images are being created by AI, and then people are convinced that they're real, and so one of the things they were talking about is like a watermark for AI content or something like that, which I really might. this is great, but I don't know how you're going to enforce any of this but it's along the same lines, right of like checking your sources. You can't even trust a picture. You can't trust a picture or a video because it can be absolutely created and edited, which is why I feel like we have a whole generation of people in their like 20s and 30s who are skeptical and cynical, skeptical of everything because we grew up watching this transition happening, whereas those who are? younger, it's already happened. This is the world that they live in, where anything can be made up and anything can be real. Yeah, what a far cry away from the conversation we were having, though Interesting talk. But I'm just curious, just like from a I love music kind of perspective what resources do you use to help kind of like diversify the composers that you work with for your orchestras and whatnot? Do you stick with the Canon or do you actively seek out diverse voices?

Am're (he/him): 22:00

So, yeah, I do like the opposite of the Canon on purpose. I feel like I don't need to teach you about Mozart or Bach because they are household names at this point. So, yes, I actively seek out things and I'm a composer, so I write stuff too for my kids to play, and it helped, especially like the last two years that I taught at private schools black and white Thanks private school. So I thought that we should overcome, which is, like you know, a simple song that fits within like an octave or so, so it's pretty easy for beginners to learn. So I can lift every voice and sing and I do some hip hop as well. So, yeah, we, there's no can in, and sometimes I wonder if I like overcorrect because I'm like we're not doing that again. But yeah, I'm learning to find my way back to the middle.

Bryan (he/they): 23:06

I feel like though there's been so many years, decades, centuries of teaching the same people and teaching the same people, because, even like in my education, it wasn't until college that I started experiencing diverse voices and diverse composers or lyricists, or whatever it might have been. I was singing. I have the privilege of singing new opera pieces that were being written in the moment, because, you know, someone did a masterclass at our school and brought music with them and whatnot, and so like it was really cool because it at that point I was introduced to different perspectives. But like what did? What did my core? You know what were my core pieces even in college. You know Bach, handel, mozart, and then you know Verdi because, and Bellini because you know opera. But it's like right all like a bunch of white dudes. Yeah, and some of them just speak different languages, but it's all just a bunch of white dudes and I was singing for the majority of what I was doing. It was like my senior year that I was like we need to shake this up. We really do.

Am're (he/him): 24:21

Yeah, and I think, even like I definitely lean towards living composers as well, because, like, the great thing about like all these people that got to write and get their stuff performed like while they were alive you know there are a lot of people alive writing good music that want to get it performed.

Bryan (he/they): 24:41

That's the thing that I think is so interesting too is that you're absolutely correct. These composers are famous because their pieces were performed while they were living. It's not like they died in someone under Earth. 300 Bach concertos, like they were performed consistently, especially Bach, because Bach worked for the church. So there was like constantly new work being performed once a week. It's like new composers, living composers aren't giving the same kind of treatment. Of that I can think of some opera composers right now who've had like five performances in the last decade and you know Mozart, my side is good. Yeah, that's the thing. Some people might say that's good. And Mozart was like I'm popping out you know brand new operas once every two years and they're getting you know full productions and I guess it's like a part of it has to do with classism, right, aristocracy. Mozart worked for, aristocracy Bach worked for the church. So these people were funding those ventures, but it's like I would love to see more new works happening pretty consistently. I guess what's what I love about theater is because I can kind of see that happening. I do see more new works happening in theater, but I don't see it as much in the big houses when it comes to classical music.

Am're (he/him): 26:14

Yeah, I mean, I think opera is taking like a sharp turn that way, because their other shows aren't selling.

Bryan (he/they): 26:23

Yeah, they are doing like X. They're doing that again and some other stuff Like here's a four hour opera in German and you have to read the subtitles the whole time, while also watching 70 people move around the stage.

Am're (he/him): 26:42

I've done that Like and watching, like, looking at the super titles, while also trying to like, look down, like this At some point. You just like okay, I think I know what's going on, oh yeah.

Bryan (he/they): 26:56

During one of the intermissions. I'll just read the synopsis, then I'll follow along. It's funny because I have subtitles on for everything that I watch on, like television. Oh, my God, and so and so it's like there's that meme that's like I can't hear without my subtitles and I feel like that's like my life. But when I'm trying to watch that if they're not well incorporated into the set, if it's just like on a screen above, cannot do it Like it's so difficult to kind of watch because the space is too big. And then I've been in productions because I used to perform with San Diego Opera where the subtitles were actually like projected onto set pieces and so you'd be doing a scene on top of this set and right under you, where you're standing, the subtitles were projected and it was super cool, worked into the scenic design, and I think that is the direction that theater, as well as opera, means to head, because, honestly so any of us are using subtitles. We should just incorporate them into theater.

Am're (he/him): 27:59

That's funny.

Bryan (he/they): 28:00

Yeah, Anywho, back to you know, education. This is what we're here for. I'm geeking out on music. What is some advice that you would give to someone who's brand new to education and they're concerned about whether or not they should be their authentic self?

Am're (he/him): 28:18

I will say try your best to be authentic. There are spaces that like safety and that could be like emotional safety or physical safety or political or whatever. But, especially with my students, I found that I formed relationships, will not intake relationships quicker Because I was just myself. I wasn't although I wasn't necessarily out to them, I wasn't pretending to like be straight, but yeah, I found that my students really appreciated that I was just real with them about everything that I could be and, yeah, we got to have a lot of fun while learning. So, yeah, as authentic as you can be, show up that way and I think that in the long run it will pay off and you will appreciate that you did it.

Bryan (he/they): 29:22

Absolutely, and I think there's something to be said about the fact that you can still show up as yourself without coming out. You can still be yourself in the classroom and not have to worry about the specifics of coming out. If that situation works for you, it does not work for me. When I worked at the same school that my children attended right, because my children are gonna talk about having two dads. They're not gonna be like my mom, weird Right. So that doesn't work for me, but for other folks like you don't have to tell and I tell this to my students all the time that I think that teachers in the classroom or in youth programs or wherever the adults that are working with students are the best actors in the world, because these kids don't know anything about you, really, like they don't know who you are, they know who you allow them to see, and so you're absolutely correct. Like, do what you can do, be your authentic self.

Am're (he/him): 30:27

I convince my middle school, I convince my middle schoolers that I was like 16 for a couple of years and every time they had like but what about this? I had an answer. I'm like you've never heard of about a 16 year old graduating from college. Look it up right now 16 years, graduate from college.

Bryan (he/they): 30:49

But yeah cause.

Am're (he/him): 30:49

I had some point. I was like I don't want you to know anything.

Bryan (he/they): 30:52

And I was like okay, I'm 33. I don't want you to know anything and, as a right of passage, do not tell anybody younger than you that I had this coverage, cause next year I'm going to say the same thing.

Am're (he/him): 31:04

No, I did that, Absolutely yes, my eighth grade is I was like you. Better not say anything. It's a right of passage.

Bryan (he/they): 31:12

I love that. So, thinking about all of your experience, what do you think the education community can do to be more inclusive of two as LGBTQ plus people?

Am're (he/him): 31:23

Ooh, for people that don't have like any connection or experience. You know there are lots of really great books you can read If you're a visual. There are lots of great YouTube things Like if this should be like professional development, learning how to engage with and teach other groups of people, and I don't know. Like I'm thinking of all these things, but then what's also coming to my mind is that, like you're a teacher and it's your job to like know how to best teach your students. So you know, if I have a student that has just moved from like a different country, I might read up to see, like what their customs are, so I know what to expect and how to better engage with that student. And I think that for some people, it's just that like you don't want to do it, and so for those people, I'm like maybe just go. But yeah, read some books, talk to some people, read and do the stuff before you talk, though because you know they don't get to do the labor. Like you do the labor and then you just like kind of check up, but you read that book, read the videos and invite people that represent these different groups that aren't present and like invite them but also make the space inviting. So don't invite them into, like a hostel area or a hostel space, Like you know. Think about those kinds of things, Cause you might want this really bad. Yeah, you may not want them to show up and be like interrogated, you know yeah, do some, do some of that leg work, use your privilege and talks and about how to you need to do some things differently.

Bryan (he/they): 33:28

Yeah, absolutely. I agree with that 100%, and especially that you know queer people, black people, latina and people do not need to educate you, you need to educate yourself and then ask questions. Ask questions is fine, but ask questions informed questions.

Am're (he/him): 33:49

Yeah.

Bryan (he/they): 33:51

I'm a huge proponent of all that. Like I, I'm actually teaching PD shortly on. How do we incorporate identity into our curriculum? And it's not just, you know, sexual orientation and gender identity, it's like all identity like what does it mean To have an identity, and then how do you let that show up in a classroom space?

Am're (he/him): 34:14

so I.

Bryan (he/they): 34:15

Think that's a huge proponent, especially because, like, we'll get like for an exchange students at a high school level and you'll get people just moving here from other places and so You're gonna encounter, in most places, you're gonna encounter people who are different than you. So it's important that you Understand how to work with people who are different than you and, granted, there are places that feel like a microcosm. Where it is, there's not a lot of diversity, or if there is diversity, there are systems in place that's segregated In dope to those people. As I reach out, you can't like you will be doing yourself a disservice to live your whole life Without learning about other people's perspectives. Yeah, absolutely at this point I'm gonna turn the mic over to you.

Am're (he/him): 35:17

We finished the interview with you asking me a question if you could wake up tomorrow and Sign at bill insula affecting education work with the bill be.

Bryan (he/they): 35:34

Um, off the top of my head, the the bill would, because you know how Legislators like to pack things in the bill. So here's what this is yes, yes, we're gonna pack it in. The first thing is that for title nine and Title seven, which title seven handles workplace protections, title nine handles child like protection of child from discrimination In a classroom. Those would include the specific terms Gender identity and sexual orientation. So right now the law says that those things, those two categories file, fall under sex discrimination, but it's that's an interpretation issue, just like we were talking about with the Bible right. It's an interpretation issue and so that the can be a problematic. The second thing funding would be more equitable. I and this is coming from a perspective that I've taught as schools that have a large title one population. I've taught as schools that are in affluent areas and the way that the funding was distributed Was inequitable either way. Like title one schools were getting brilliant brand new buildings, but they didn't have enough teachers and they didn't have the the salaries to be able to get quality teachers into those buildings, whereas then these other schools might have higher salaries but like crappy facilities, and so it's like Funding would be Addressed in a major way. I also think that there needs to be Not coming core, but some sort of standard that is set by the national government. Every single state should not own its own education. That is where we're getting so Many problems right now, where we can have, like Florida and Texas and Alabama, being like I'm not teaching African American history as an AP course. I'm not doing it. I'm not teaching these things because they say they talked about a queer person or they talked about a black person or they talked about a brown person. That's not okay. The federal government should be able to say that the curriculum must reflect the country that we live in. So I think that those three things are kind of like baseline, what I'd want to see in educational policy. You know, it would be nice to have pay raises, but also, like, I Think that Pay raises are necessary. But something else that needs to be packed into the bill is the understanding that the educators are the experts. That being a parent does not mean that you have the expertise to know what it needs to be taught in a classroom, because you didn't get that degree and you did not focus on that area. And if you did, and you are one of those people who is an educator and a parent, like myself, then Congratulations. Hopefully you're not raising a storm for other teachers, you know. But I know teachers who are raising a storm for other teachers and I'm just like what are you doing? like you know, what it's like to teach in a classroom. So, yeah, we'll say five things. Right, teachers are the experts. We're gonna protect everyone in the law. We are going to fund schools appropriately and equitably. We're going to Universalize education in the extent that there needs to be some sort of standard that everybody is held accountable to in the nation. And it could just be like these topics have to be taught, like I don't need a test, I just need to know that these specific topics have to be taught and that, like my state government doesn't have the ability to decide that I don't teach them and then Pay raises. Yeah, let's pay the experts what they deserve. Yeah, thanks.

Am're (he/him): 40:04

You mentioned I've got Well. You mentioned experts. I actually first lot of legislators who get to make laws about education who have no experience. That was my first thought.

Bryan (he/they): 40:18

But I guess the parents both right, and that's the thing that really drives me crazy. Is that like I Cannot run for a school board if I teach in that school board, and Most of the people on school boards are parents who have other jobs, they don't actually know anything about education and yet they're supposed to be making the educational decisions for the whole district. That's mind-boggling to me. There should at least be what like an equal representation. It really needs to be more like what a PTA used to be, which was like a representation from parents and teachers To make what a PTA used to be.

Am're (he/him): 41:00

I noticed right, they don't do that.

Bryan (he/they): 41:02

No they do not. Actually, I forgot about it because it's parents each of a year. Okay, yeah, you're, you're a hundred percent correct I think about, like again, texas, right, you can't work at the Texas Board of Education and teach, they won't. Like you can retire and hope to get appointed, but like they don't want, they don't want people who are actually doing the job to help make the decisions, which I think is so silly, because it's like we know what the problems are, we know what the real issues a hand are in and we could help create sustainable solutions, or you could keep doing the same things that you're doing and it's not good. You know right, we got options, I guess.

Am're (he/him): 41:55

Yeah.

Bryan (he/they): 41:57

All right. Well, I just wanted to thank you so much for being on the episode. I really appreciate your thoughtfulness. I take I love that you took a pause when you thought about each answers because, like, while I send these questions out to people, like I'm glad that you took some time and have thoughtful responses, so I appreciate that. Thank you, and thank you all, at home or wherever you are, for listening to teaching while queer. Have a great day. Thank you for joining us on this episode of teaching while queer. I hope you enjoyed it. If you did, make sure to subscribe. Wherever you listen to your favorite podcast, leave a review, and that would help out tremendously. You can also support the podcast by going to wwwteachingwhilequeercom and hit support the show. Thanks so much and have a great day.