Composing a Life of Authenticity and Acceptance in Education

Bryan (he/they):
0:27

Teaching While Queer is a podcast for 2S LGBTQIA+ educational professionals to share their experiences in academia. Hi, I'm your host, Bryan Stanton, a theater pedagogy and educator in New York City, and my goal is to share stories from around the world from 2S LGBTQIA+ educators. I hope you enjoy Teaching While Queer. Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Teaching While Queer. I am your host, Bryan Stanton. My pronouns are he/ they.

Bryan (he/they):
1:01

As you all know, we are living in a very turbulent time when it comes to being a queer educator, and today's guest is anonymous. So I'm going to allow them the opportunity to introduce himself and we will go through our normal interview. However, it'll be with a little slight twist. You won't be able to see this person and we're going to do everything we can to make sure that identifying information is not broadcasted because, at the end of the day, my goal is, like, the safety of all these educators that I am interviewing. So this is a shout out to anybody else out there who wants to be a part of the podcast and might be a little concerned that their stories are going to make them targeted. I'm happy to have you on in an anonymous setting and this is an example for you. So hello guests, how are you doing today?

Anonymous (he/him):
1:47

Hello, Mr Stanton.

Bryan (he/they):
1:48

So are you anonymous too, or I'm just kidding, I am not, I am like out there, you know, poster child of all the queer teachers and queer people, you know waving the banner, as it were, right. I hope I have gosh. I hope I'm not the poster child of all the queer teachers.

Anonymous (he/him):
2:03

I'm just. I'm just asking to make sure that it's okay that I call you Stanton. Yeah, but I'm also just being facetious, so I apologize. Well, hello, and thank you for having me on your podcast. I'm going to go by guest just for the sake of being anonymous. So, yeah, thank you for having me.

Bryan (he/they):
2:22

Oh, it's my pleasure. So tell me a little bit about how you identify within the community and what your role is in the educational community.

Anonymous (he/him):
2:31

Sure, so I identify as a gay cisgendered man. My pronouns are he, him and I am pretty much. I guess I just identify as an educator. I teach orchestra, excuse me and I have taught grades five all the way through undergraduates at university level, and I teach in the Southwestern United States, one of the states in there. So, yeah, I've been doing that for almost 10 years. I think in January I'll hit 10 years because I was a December grad. So, yeah, started in 25 and it'll be 10 years in 2020.

Bryan (he/they):
3:00

That's awesome. I did not know you were December grad and also that you got that mid-year job block in.

Anonymous (he/him):
3:05

So that's cool I did. It was very strange and doesn't happen very often, but I got it and was there for a little bit. Then I left, yeah.

Bryan (he/they):
3:13

Say lovey. That is the way it is sometimes right. So, let's take a journey back in time and talk about what it was like for you as a queer student. Did you also grow up in the Southern Midwest?

Anonymous (he/him):
3:25

Southwestern United States. Yes, I did.

Bryan (he/they):
3:27

Southwestern United States, my bad.

Anonymous (he/him):
3:31

Yeah, I did grow up in the Southwest excuse me, southwest, southwest United States. I grew up in a moderately liberal family, a Hispanic family. We identified as Americans, but also with Mexican heritage, but I'm like a fourth generation. A lot of that culture has kind of died down. But it's very fascinating because I mean, gosh, when I was a teenager and I was going through my rebellious stage, I would argue with my parents a lot because they voted Democrat and they identified as left wing. But it was like I would always call them purple Democrats because it was like, well, you vote that way, but your ideologies aren't necessarily leaning towards left, mostly through religiousness, I say severely Catholic, but even I mean it's all within context, right, so even within then it wasn't as Catholic as others. But for me, you know, there was a time in my life where they made our family go to church every Sunday and but then, even when conversations at church would turn a little bit more like anti-abortion or anti-gay, my dad was like nodding his head and my mom was shaking her head like no, I don't believe in that. So I did have a good mix of both sides growing up.

Anonymous (he/him):
4:42

All that to say that I never really felt like I acted different or I had to hide a part of myself. The way I talk to you and other queer people is the exact same way I talk to my family. I've just kind of been myself since I was a kid. However, I did feel a sense of shame when people would call me gay slurs or use slurs against me Every once I.

Anonymous (he/him):
5:05

The first time I was called the F word I was in probably fourth grade and it was one of my classmates and he used it against me and I remember like my fight or flight just was like he knows how do they know? And that's not even to say that he truly believes that I was. It was just a slur that people use in the early nineties, you know, and but it yielded some kind of reaction out of me that may not have happened to someone else who didn't identify as gay. So, yeah, I mean I hit it. I didn't really tell anyone that I was, but I also didn't. I didn't like code switch either. So it was just a very interesting upbringing where I think I was okay with it, but I didn't want to verbalize it, but I also didn't hide it either. I don't know, it was just. It was just weird. If you have a follow up question, feel free, because I don't know if I'm making sense.

Bryan (he/they):
5:48

No, it makes perfect sense. I mean, the whole point of this interview is to discover your journey right Like it's your opportunity.

Anonymous (he/him):
5:54

True.

Bryan (he/they):
5:54

And what I think is so interesting is that, from what I know of you through our pre interview conversation and whatnot, is this kind of how your life is right now. You are who you are, but you're not blatantly out there being like I'm here, I'm queer, here's my rainbow flag. All of the time, you're just yourself.

Anonymous (he/him):
6:13

Right, and I was actually having this conversation with my students earlier today because they were. I always asked how they're doing and they were telling me that's like, oh, it's just a boring day. And I was like I live for boring days because I would rather have a hundred straight boring days than a really good day followed by a lot of really bad days. Like to me, I kind of find happiness with just the neutral, like nothing necessarily bad is happening, but also nothing good is happening either. And for me that's like that's where most of life happens, in my opinion. But the good, high energy, amazing days, they're few and far between, you know, but the real life, what's happening that will get you to where you need to go, is really found in those boring days. And then the habits that we develop that maintain themselves within those boring days. So, yeah, I've just have never been that person and honestly, I think, because I take each day that way, I think that most of my days are pretty happy, like not necessarily a good day, but I'm just mostly happy. I mean, I smile every day, I laugh with someone every day, I make jokes every day, and for me I'm like that's kind of what I'm looking for in terms of how I want to live. Of course we have goals and aspirations, but for the most part I just want to be happy, I want to laugh, I want to meet people, I want to build relationships. That's, that's kind of what I live for and I guess with that in mind, I approach my identity that way too, like I don't take it so seriously that it's going to affect my day as a person.

Anonymous (he/him):
7:40

You know, if someone knows that I'm gay, fine. If someone doesn't know I'm gay, that's also fine. You know it, just it. Just it doesn't really have much influence on me, and I will kind of follow up with that by saying as long as I feel like I'm still being myself, I feel like it would be different if I felt like in each space that I went into I had to change who I was. But thankfully I'm not in a position where I feel like I have that need and so, because I'm in that environment, fortunately I don't feel like I have to code switch, I don't feel like I have to make a statement. I'm not, I'm just able to be and that's fine and truly. Now that I'm talking about it out loud, I kind of hope that that's something that everyone can get to a point that everyone can get to where they can just be and not have to worry about things.

Bryan (he/they):
8:22

Yeah, you got me thinking that society honestly needs to put more emphasis on contentment, because I feel, like we're pushed in this direction through marketing, that we're in this like constant state of want right. And the best days are the days where you get what you want.

Bryan (he/they):
8:37

And then the worst days are the days when you get what you don't want or you don't get what you want, and then there's all these days in between that are just kind of like. You know, some of the things I wanted happened, some of the things I didn't want to happen happened and it was OK yeah it was an OK day. It's almost like when people are covering up for bad days and they're like I'm fine, but there's sometimes you can tell when a person is genuinely like I'm fine, you know right.

Bryan (he/they):
9:02

Good, it's not bad. I'm just, I'm fine. This is where we are. And I do think that that's something that society on a whole like we can get to a better place of contentment. That would be ideal.

Bryan (he/they):
9:12

I remember this like argument I had with my 17 year old at the start of summer, end of summer this past summer, where he claimed that like every single day was an argument and it got me thinking about how people remember the bad things and people remember the good things, but then, like we've been talking about here, like the contentment, the days where there is no argument, but there also wasn't like something really spectacular happening in the house, just kind of disappeared.

Anonymous (he/him):
9:39

Right Never happened.

Bryan (he/they):
9:41

But I think you're right that those are the days where it's like, honestly, most of our living is happening there. Not every day is a bad day, not every day is a great day. Some days are just days, and those days are perfectly fine.

Anonymous (he/him):
9:54

Right, and you know now that because, of course, these are things I never think about until you know, you're on a podcast with using the name guest and you're able to kind of dissect your experiences, I will say that there have been, there were some pretty traumatic experiences in my childhood and I'm wondering, now that I, you know we're talking about it, I'm wondering if this has initially started as like a coping mechanism of like, you know, yeah, like, hey, these, these I'm not gonna say terrible, everything's within context, right, so like, of course there are people out there who have had it worse.

Anonymous (he/him):
10:25

But within my own lived experiences there were some moments that influenced me and affected me and changed my life as a young person, and so maybe that's just how I was able to grow out of that and not let it affect me to a point where I was unhappy every day and just coming to the realization is like, hey, things happen, bad things happen, um, but am I going to let those few experiences influence how every day goes? And I guess what I probably learned at too early of an age is that it was kind of up to me to determine how my day was going to go and what I would perceive as something that will change the day, and so maybe it's all a coping strategy. I don't know. I should probably talk to someone about that.

Bryan (he/they):
11:04

Yeah, the funny thing about it is that you did something that my therapist like actively worked on me about, which is justifying our trauma and the sense that it's like well, you know, other people had it worse than me, so it's all about context. But the thing is that, like trauma is trauma is trauma and varying levels of trauma, for sure. But for something to be like truly traumatic, and trauma like that is impactful on a person, regardless of how it compares to somebody else.

Anonymous (he/him):
11:29

Right.

Bryan (he/they):
11:30

It's possible. I mean, it's something to work into Maybe. Yeah, I love therapy on this podcast so you know, seek out a therapist, give it a little chat.

Anonymous (he/him):
11:39

Because it's really interesting.

Bryan (he/they):
11:41

You had this revelation, like you know, just because we decided to talk about it.

Anonymous (he/him):
11:45

Exactly, it's true, and you know that happened to me before I was even aware of sexual identity or sexual desires, and so potentially that could be a reason why I approached being my identity the way it was. You know it's because it's like, well, I'm not going to treat this like if it's something that needs to be spoken about, because I'm just going to be myself, because that's where I'm the most happy and I'm just going to kind of live that way, and it probably stems from other things. But, yeah, my whole childhood was based like that.

Bryan (he/they):
12:15

I think that's not a bad outlook to have, though I mean, there's so much shame wrapped up in being queer for a lot of young people.

Anonymous (he/him):
12:21

Right.

Bryan (he/they):
12:22

Like the fact that you were in a place where the shame kind of broached. When you were put in a place where someone was trying to shame you, like that actually seems like you had a mindset that might be a good mindset for resilience as a young person.

Anonymous (he/him):
12:38

Right and I think you know, thinking back now, you know my parents didn't have a ton of money and we didn't have unlimited access to resources, and so I would also shape my outlook was the idea of, like, if I consistently look and pick out things, of things that other people have, that I don't, I'll never end, it'll never stop.

Anonymous (he/him):
12:57

There's always something that someone has or an experience someone has that you want but you're not going to get it. And because I didn't have my parents or my family to rely on to help me get there, it was kind of instilled in me pretty early that anything that I wanted in this life was going to have to be something that I work for, and that's just. You can't rely on others, because if I could I would probably, but I didn't have that growing up. So everything that I've done up until now I don't want to say it's been alone, because of course, other people like, even if it's not financial or monetary, even if it's just emotional support, that is still something. So I wasn't completely alone, but in terms of, like, monetary things, yeah, anything I was going to have to work for that. So, yeah, it's just, you know, all these the culmination of experiences. I think that kind of led to who I am today.

Bryan (he/they):
13:44

Absolutely so I wanted to kind of dive a little bit now into what it's like for you as an educator. So you've, got this kind of demeanor that is focused on contentment maybe not focused, but like centers on contentment, Do you? See that playing out in your pedagogy and how you interact with your students as well.

Anonymous (he/him):
14:03

I think so and I think that I mean, like I said I was talking to them about the boring days I think I offer a perspective that they maybe don't have or hear a lot, partially because I've never taught in a school whose community matched the upbringing that I had. I've only ever taught in schools with students with a lot of access to resources and who are, you know, for the most part, pretty privileged that's not everyone, but it's most of them. And so I think that when I hear some of these things and I have these authentic conversations with them or I guess I should say I make it a point to have authentic conversations with them, of bringing up a different perspective, of saying, like you know, they might tell me, you know I don't have the latest phone or something and I'm like oh, you know, I'm sorry, but how's your day otherwise, you know? And I just kind of deflect into trying to help them see the good things that are happening, despite, I mean sure, like I said earlier, there are things that bad things that happen but just trying to find things that do make them happy, that they can do themselves, like this morning I had a conversation with the student and he was telling me how frustrated he is because he wants to sound professional. And and I told him, well, first of all, it doesn't happen overnight. It takes years of consistent practice to get to that point where you are happy with your sound. And I'm going to be honest with you, there are professionals who are still not happy with their sound. Even though you can listen to them and think, wow, they sound amazing, they can still not be happy.

Anonymous (he/him):
15:24

So my suggestion to him was to kind of, instead of using that as a means to be frustrated, use it as a means towards motivate his practice, or like what about my playing now is keeping me from playing the way I want to? Okay, we'll work on that, you know. So, like sure, you know, and I have a friend who's a psychiatrist and we talk often about mental health and how we perceive things, and one of the things he says is it's okay to visit those dark times. It's okay, totally fine. That's how we deal with it. What's not okay is to live there and to become comfortable only being comfortable in the dark places.

Anonymous (he/him):
16:00

So I'm like you know what feel your feelings, go ahead Like you're frustrated, have at it, but how can you change that into something that's going to help you towards your goal and let's try to focus on that, and when you're ready to talk, I'm ready to help you, and so I use that to influence my pedagogy a lot. I just I think that it's good for them especially. I have middle schoolers now and high school, but mostly middle school and I think it's good if they can learn that or at least start getting little. What do they say? Worms in the ear, whatever that is. If they can start the getting little snippets of you know wise things at this age, I think it'll benefit them in the long term.

Bryan (he/they):
16:36

Absolutely, and I think it's so hard right now for arts teachers because we're in a society where a child who plays well can make it big on YouTube or TikTok and then, all of a sudden, children their same age think that that's how you make it when in fact, 99th of the people who are making it professionally in the arts, you know, are working their tails off. Even as professionals, they're still working their tails off.

Bryan (he/they):
17:02

They professional, you know performers still have a teacher right and they're still, and they're still learning and they're still perfecting their craft and you know their technique exercises and playing their scales or whatever the situation might be to like, keep up on things. And it's that again back to that instant gratification kind of world that we live in. It makes it hard right now to teach the arts because there's so many people who are like but I practice, you know, for 30 minutes. I should have gotten this down 100%.

Anonymous (he/him):
17:30

Right, especially with string instruments.

Bryan (he/they):
17:32

Oh man, it takes years it doesn't double whammy, though, because of the ear training part of it, right.

Anonymous (he/him):
17:37

Yes, yeah.

Bryan (he/they):
17:38

That's the part where, like I'm a musician and I don't have the ear trained, like I have good ears but not well enough to play a stringed instrument.

Anonymous (he/him):
17:46

Well, you probably could have, Could? You're right, it doesn't come natural to a lot of people, which is why, like for me, when it comes to assessments it's always tricky. Because I try to be inclusive as much as possible and because I come with a different background than my students, I want to set up my class to where everyone has a chance of being successful. Now, that's tricky because with instruments and learning instruments or just musical aptitude, so much of it can be developed in early childhood that not everyone gets and that's not something I control.

Anonymous (he/him):
18:16

So, for example, if a student comes to me and maybe they've never played an instrument before, but they've been surrounded by music since they were toddlers, they usually have an easier time with rhythm and melodic identification and so many other things than a student whose maybe parents were more sports oriented and maybe they only listen to music passively. Where they were at a sporting event heard the marching band or something, and or it was background. So it's really hard because I try to make assessments tailored towards each student and what they're bringing, and so you know an A in my class looks different for each student, because I just think it's unfair. I can't do that because they don't have. They're not coming from the same place.

Bryan (he/they):
18:54

I think that's so on point too, and I think that there's something to be said about teaching to mastery, and that mastery looks different for every person. I know like mastery is not a great term, right Like that's a term we're trying to use.

Anonymous (he/him):
19:04

Well, that's just what they use. I don't know what the term.

Bryan (he/they):
19:07

Yeah, I don't know a better term for it or a more used term in education, but yeah, it's you know your goal is to learn this skill set. That is dictated by whatever state you're teaching in, and so it's not a matter of time. You have the whole school year, or sometimes the whole four year or seven year program to learn these things. You know, as long as you're progressing, you're going to learn at your own pace, and as long as you're learning, that looks different for everybody.

Anonymous (he/him):
19:33

Right For sure.

Bryan (he/they):
19:34

I think it'd be weird for us to be like I'm sorry, this person has been taking private violin lessons since they were two and they get an A, but you get a D because you're still working on the scale.

Anonymous (he/him):
19:46

Like it's.

Bryan (he/they):
19:46

It's a weird thing to have to say that it's the same for every single person.

Anonymous (he/him):
19:50

Yes, it's very weird, but I mean I uh, thankfully I'm not in a position where, like someone's coming at me and saying why don't all of your students have A's?

Bryan (he/they):
20:00

With these arts kids. They all have it.

Anonymous (he/him):
20:02

Right, right. Thankfully I don't have that. I don't know. I would have to have a deeper conversation with an administrator if they wanted a more like, a range of like Fs to A. That's not how I teach. I would not teach at a school like that.

Bryan (he/they):
20:15

Yeah, that seems really hard to do and I could, like I had a variety of grades and a lot of it came down to students literally being like no, I'm not doing that. But like I had a student last year when I was teaching at a high school that was like I'm okay taking the F and I'm like you're a junior, do you really want to retake this art class? Like that seems real silly.

Bryan (he/they):
20:36

Yeah, I'm taking the F? Okay, all right, you do you then? So let's talk a little bit about queerness and education. Have you ever had experiences where you had to address anti queer behavior on my campus.

Anonymous (he/him):
20:47

Actually, yes, this actually happened recently, and it was my first time ever seeing anything like this, and so I had two boys. One of them has a more alternative style haircut because he's like one of the rocker kids and you know he has longer hair and it doesn't necessarily mean anything about sexual orientation, is just a different style.

Bryan (he/they):
21:06

Well, I have another student back at the 80s man.

Anonymous (he/him):
21:09

I know right.

Bryan (he/they):
21:10

Every like cisgender heterosexual rock icon had long hair.

Anonymous (he/him):
21:14

Right and back home and makeup.

Anonymous (he/him):
21:18

Well so I have these two boys and one of them told the other you know, you have gay hair. And he said it in a as in a not nice way, and he said they said it right in front of me. And then the other one was like I don't have gay hair, there's no such thing as gay hair, which is a great answer, by the way and I just kind of intervened. I said hey, you know what? First of all, I didn't want to make it towards a don't say that about gay people, because I think it's more than just being queer or gay, and I think, as we get continuing this conversation, that's probably going to be my theme. It's more than sexual identity, it's just about treatment of humans. And so what I told them was hey, you know what, just a general rule of thumb, it's probably a good idea not to make comments about anyone's appearance at all.

Bryan (he/they):
22:00

Yes. So I don't know how many times like as a parent, I don't know how many times I say the words. Maybe we just don't comment on people's bodies. Right, yes, and then it's frustrating because we'll be watching TV show, like my nine year old currently is hooked on Hell's Kitchen, I don't know why.

Bryan (he/they):
22:15

Like she, oh my gosh Gordon Ramsay, but like that show is so sexist, like there's so many comments, usually from the men, that are like oh, she over there is, just like you know, a good set of boobs and a nice ass, and oh yeah, she can cook too, I guess.

Anonymous (he/him):
22:33

And I'm like, what if we just didn't comment on people's bodies.

Bryan (he/they):
22:36

Like what would the world be like? Oh right, I'm waiting on that. Like what if we just talk about it?

Anonymous (he/him):
22:42

I think. I think for me it's like, you know, I'm not the skinniest person in the world, and so I suffered with some eating disorder behavior when I was younger and I was trying to lose weight and it worked. I lost weight, but it was not a healthy way to do it, and so when people would tell me or compliment me about how good I looked, it reinforced that behavior because I thought, well, it's working and everyone's saying how good I look Like, okay, I'm going to keep doing it, and so I have a little bit of special attention to that Also. You know, you know these were sixth graders. I don't know what the world's going to be like when they're adults, but what I can say is what the world is like now is a lot of people are very sensitive, especially, you know, when it comes to sexual harassment, and understandably so, you know, because there's a lot of creeps out there.

Anonymous (he/him):
23:26

But I do think about, especially with these boys, and maybe this is wrong of me, but it's like I want to start letting them know like, hey, you know what? Just don't say anything about anyone, because even if it's a compliment, you know, hey, your hair looks nice or you look dressed, you're dressed well today. You know it could be taken the wrong way and I don't want them to get into that habit. So I was like I can use this as a learning tool, of like just don't say anything about anyone's appearance at all. You can say, I don't know, you look happy or are you proud of yourself, or something Like. Let it be something that they are able to express themselves, not something that you are telling them of what it looks like. So it stops there and the two boys have been more arguments since that, but it's never been about gayness. It's always been about you're doing this and it's making me upset, which, honestly, I can handle. That.

Bryan (he/they):
24:16

Yeah, I think talking about behaviors is so much better than talking about appearance or commenting on someone's body or their sexual identity or whatever the situation might be. Like behaviors we can handle, because it's like when. It's like the difference of calling someone the B word and saying you're acting like a B word you know, the acting like the behavior side of it.

Bryan (he/they):
24:41

the behavior can be changed, but when you're identifying someone as this thing that is like we all have a definition of what the B word means then you're basically saying that's just who that person is which goes back to your conversation about like it's more than just one thing.

Anonymous (he/him):
24:57

Right.

Bryan (he/they):
24:57

And so that's. I'm a huge proponent of like behaviors and I do that like working with my own children and then working with you know students is trying to identify the behavior versus trying to like comment on the person.

Anonymous (he/him):
25:10

Sure, and it's you know. So this is an example of some of the things that they've argued about is, like you know, they saw each other outside of my class and they came in and that's where they started hashing it out. It's like, well, we were at the pep rally and you were in the bleachers and you know my friend was talking and you said you reported him to the teacher that he was talking. He got in trouble. So it's like that's just little kids stuff. You know what I mean.

Anonymous (he/him):
25:32

Yeah, that's when I'm like, okay, those are the conversations that I'm okay with y'all having Cause in my head. It's like almost like practice of setting boundaries on other people. So I'm like you know what? Explore that. See, you know that's fine. Likewise, there was another instance where it wasn't a gay hate or anything like that. There's just two boys in another class and they also don't like each other and one of them came to me. He was like well, so-and-so is being really mean to me, and the other kid overheard and he interrupted and said I'm not being mean to you, I just don't like you. And I was like that's fair and maybe I shouldn't say that.

Bryan (he/they):
26:05

But it's a lesson that needs to be learned, though. That, like, not everybody's going to like you, and also you don't have to like everyone.

Anonymous (he/him):
26:13

Exactly, and that's what I turned it to. Yeah.

Bryan (he/they):
26:16

Like young people feel like they need to be liked by everyone and they need to like everybody, but like don't.

Anonymous (he/him):
26:22

And that includes other people put this out there.

Bryan (he/they):
26:23

That includes your teachers. Like I might not like you, it's not going to change how, like I, treat you or what you're doing in my class, but like I don't have to like everybody I encounter in my day.

Anonymous (he/him):
26:35

Right, we're professional.

Bryan (he/they):
26:37

You learn to work with people.

Anonymous (he/him):
26:38

Right, exactly, and that's what I turned it to. I told him I pulled the other kid aside because the bell was ringing when this happened and I told him hey, you know what? I'm going to be honest with you. You don't have to like everyone. I'm not even saying you have to be everyone's friend, but what I am saying is that you have to treat everyone with kindness.

Anonymous (he/him):
26:53

And I know that he might act in a way that gets on your nerves and it really makes you frustrated, but you cannot let that be an excuse to treat out someone else poorly. And he was like yes, sir, he's a football player. So he was like yes, sir, he just left and things have been better since then. He's learned to ignore him. You know it's fine, and those are the things where I'm like. You know it's. Those are the like fan, not family. The life lessons that we teach our kids. If we're, if we're, willing to take the, to make the effort towards teaching them that, and that's not even something that's happening in the classroom or like part of my curriculum, that's just life. You know.

Bryan (he/they):
27:29

yeah, I think there's life conversations that happen in the hallways or between classes with students that are so important and they make a huge impact. We just have to be willing to have the conversations I talked to somebody recently about. I was teaching at a conference and I was like I have a whole math department at a school that I used to teach at where, like, their relationship with a student was built around sarcasm and that was it Like yeah, I didn't know, one way or another, how they stood with the teacher, because every single word was sarcasm and there wasn't a lot of effort put into actually developing a strong relationship with the students.

Bryan (he/they):
28:04

But we, you know, get 17th PDs a year that say that we need to build strong relationships with our students and that any time is a good time to build that strong relationship, and so these are the this is the moment, these are the things that are happening, like just observing a conversation or pulling a student aside to discuss something with them.

Anonymous (he/him):
28:23

That's your moment.

Bryan (he/they):
28:24

That's where you're building a relationship, but you're also having these conversations that are going to impact that person forever, and if the conversation you're having is, look, you have to be professional. You need to be kind to everyone. Kindness isn't everything and I'm not going to say that kindness is going to excuse a lot of poor behavior, because there are some very kind adults that do some very horrific things in the world.

Anonymous (he/him):
28:45

Exactly, exactly. It's a start.

Bryan (he/they):
28:47

Yes, it is a step in the right direction for a young person to start doing. Then they just learn what in their life their values are and then how to live up to those values.

Anonymous (he/him):
28:57

And you know, can you imagine if most young people took that approach to relationships with other people? I think so many things would be solved, including hatred towards cultures or things that you don't understand, like being gay or someone being all and proud. If they don't understand, it's like hey, you know what you don't have to, and that's okay, but you cannot make them feel shame about it because that's their life and let them live, and that's all I want. That's what I guess, that's what it is. I just want everyone to let each other live how they want to live and not pass judgments. And if you do, don't say it, because you don't have to be around them. You don't like. I'm not. I'm not a proponent of saying like we all have to, you know, stand hand in hand, because that's not realistic, that's not going to happen.

Bryan (he/they):
29:41

We are the world.

Anonymous (he/him):
29:43

Exactly. I mean, and maybe that's a hot take, but that's just how I feel. It's like it's not realistic to think that you're going to get along with everyone because you're not.

Bryan (he/they):
29:51

When I and it's funny because it took I like had a really hard time. I struggled with this when I first started teaching about like, I felt like I needed to like every single one of my students, but in reality, I could teach someone and not necessarily like them. So, like, it's really just a matter of like how you treat people, regardless of who the person is.

Anonymous (he/him):
30:11

Right.

Bryan (he/they):
30:13

And I'm intrigued, I'm interested to know you mentioned that like you are yourself and you don't necessarily go out of your way to feel like you have to come out to people, so do you feel like that's something that you do in the classroom, that you have to come out, or do you just follow that kind of who I am is who I am and I'm just going to be myself, sure.

Anonymous (he/him):
30:34

So I will say that you know, there was a time in my life where, and even now, I do a pretty good job of separating my personal life from my professional life and even within that I have friends in different groups than they have no idea that I am involved in so many different circles because I keep them separate and I don't know why I do that. I think it could be something like each group fulfills a need or desire that I have and so I get that fulfillment from different people or different environments. I definitely I don't come out to the students. I've come out to two or three and I've only ever done that when I knew I was leaving the job and it was after they had come out to me and I did not come out to them immediately after they came out to me because I'm not going to, you know, say, oh, you're gay, me too, that's not the point. Like I'm here to listen to you, you tell me, and even then it's like it's just conversations and passing it's like, or little little actions like.

Anonymous (he/him):
31:30

For one student in particular who came out to me a couple months later, it was like I have a friend who has had all these pride stickers and he gave me some and I was like oh yeah, you know, I really love these pride stickers. You want one? He was like yes, and he like put it on his laptop and stuff. Um, and then he just straight up was like are you gay? And I'm like yeah, I am.

Anonymous (he/him):
31:47

And so um, but of course it's usually. It's usually that the students who do identify as queer or in the LGBTQ plus community that can catch my tea. Um, but in the classroom I say stuff like oh, that's the tea, what?

Bryan (he/they):
32:02

did you just begin?

Anonymous (he/him):
32:03

Oh I was, I was watching RuPaul's Drag Race. You know, um, I do have a lot of vocal inflection in my voice, which is not generally seen as a straight thing. I do that. I talk with my hands. You know I say girl like girl, that was bad. You know I say things like that. So and it's, and that's not even on purpose. I'm not trying to throw like have Easter eggs out there where they can conspire. That's just how I talk. You know that I speak like that with friends. That's how I feel most myself when I'm not in a professional setting, and so when I'm with the students, it's kind of like I want them to get a chance to know who I am as a person, not just a teacher. And it doesn't have to be that I came out and was like guess what students, I went on a date with a man this weekend. Ooh, and it was good.

Anonymous (he/him):
32:45

No it doesn't have to be that. It doesn't have to be that. You know, I show up and I'm like oh, here are my rainbow flags and I went to pride this weekend because I'm gay. It's none of that. You know, I am totally fine with just sharing my experiences that are appropriate for them so they can get a chance to know who I am.

Anonymous (he/him):
33:01

And, surprisingly so, in every campus that I've worked at, usually the athletic boys are the ones that latch on to me most, more than anyone else, and I don't know why that is. Sometimes I'm like, maybe because they feel like they can be themselves too and they don't have to put on a front of like hyper masculine. You know, they can let their true self come out, which you know they're. Maybe at times they are hyper masculine, but it doesn't have to be always just how I said. I have different groups. You know. I behave differently based on where I'm at, and that isn't necessarily me and I like one more than the other. They're all parts of me, but I chose. I choose environments where I let those different parts come out, and it just so happens that at the school those parts can come out. I just don't verbalize it and that's okay for me. I'm not the type of person who feels like they need to know for me to be authentic Speaking of authenticity.

Bryan (he/they):
33:49

What would you tell a first year teacher who was going into the classroom and they were unsure about how much of their themselves to share with their students?

Anonymous (he/him):
33:57

Sure. Well, I think for a first year teacher who was unsure, I honestly I would say probably get to know your environment first, because we also want to look up for the safety of ourselves and no one is going to be looking out for us more than we are. So that would be my number one like just know your environment before you, you know, choose to decide. And that's not even encouraging hiding. It's just like if you're going to come out and say it kind of like myself, I don't care where I'm teaching, I'm going to behave the same way. But if I'm going to come out and declare being homosexual, you know that would be different. So I would say learn your environment, find out what the community is like. Find out what your admins like. Are they the type who support teachers or the type who support parents? Because that's a thing, and so I would do that. And then I would say if you want, if you find that it's a safe space, that's great.

Anonymous (he/him):
34:43

Just make sure that everything you say is appropriate for the age group that you're with, because not everyone would feel comfortable with certain things, depending on what we do. I mean, it's just like our cisgendered straight colleagues they don't really go into detail about their home life or their personal life with their husbands or wives. They can say, hey, I'm married, this is my wife, these are my kids and that's it. You know. And that's about the extent of the kids know.

Anonymous (he/him):
35:07

So I would just say, just keep it professional. You know, as you get to know them, just feel the room, see what's there and then also, I think I would say, ask them to really understand what the purpose of sharing would be with anything Like. I feel like I want to share this with my students. Well, you have to decide why. What result do you hope to get out of this? Because if it's just for your own benefit, then usually when teachers do things just for the sake of themselves, that's usually not a great decision. It's like this has to be from the benefit of our students. We're people of service, in my opinion.

Bryan (he/they):
35:37

I think that's fair and I think you're the first one to really bring that up in. You know, two seasons is what is the why behind it. And there are a lot of justifiable reasons to share who you are and who you are with your students. It's just making sure that you know that, as opposed to feeling like you're obligated to share something Exactly, and then what would you like to see from the school community? This is like everybody parents, community members, teachers, students what would you like?

Bryan (he/they):
36:04

to see from the school community and what can they do to be more inclusive of 2SLGBTQIA plus students?

Anonymous (he/him):
36:12

Well, I think that, overall, people in general need to become comfortable with seeing different people living differently than they do. And how does that happen? I don't know.

Bryan (he/they):
36:22

You know I had a spoiler alert. There are different people in the world.

Anonymous (he/him):
36:25

Yeah.

Bryan (he/they):
36:27

It's wild.

Anonymous (he/him):
36:29

Right. So you know the idea that being gay is wrong can lead to I don't want a gay teacher at my school. That is a larger conversation of something that needs to change before we can see that in the school. It's kind of funny because you know a lot of people and I heard a professor say this in college once a lot of people think that schools can change the world or change society, when really schools are just a reflection of what's already happening in society. So I guess very small baby steps would be just kind of focusing on and I'm reluctant to say diversity, but that's what it is, and not necessarily cultural diversity.

Anonymous (he/him):
37:03

Because you know, as a Hispanic person I feel like I have been oftentimes used as the voice of diversity. But I don't know, if you can tell, I don't have much of an accent, a Spanish, I don't speak Spanish. You know I'm fourth generation American, so the Mexican culture is kind of not completely removed from my life, but it's pretty far down. And so I'm like, why are you minimizing me to the color of my skin? Because culturally I'm more similar to a white person than I am to someone who may be his first generation or immigrated here themselves. So the whole idea of like diversity.

Anonymous (he/him):
37:38

It's like not only diversity of race, but maybe the diversity of culture, the diversity of how we operate as humans, the way we live, you know, the way we dress, the way we dress. Why do all teachers have to dress in quote business professional, that's based on European standards? Can it be cool if a teacher comes in more cultural attire? Can it be cool if a teacher says, oh yeah, and I am a gay person and just kind of coming to that realization of, or even just communicating like hey, we embrace different lifestyles here and we do not claim that one style, one lifestyle is more moral than the other. What we, what we look at are actions and how we treat each other. And I think once we can get to that point and probably we should come down to like superintendents and school boards coming with that, that's where the change is going to happen, cause you know, if a principal takes that position and parents complain to superintendent and superintendent does not agree, that principal will have nowhere to stand.

Bryan (he/they):
38:30

You're a hundred percent correct. I have repeated ad nauseam on this podcast that school boards are the most powerful, the governing body in in education, and so we need more people who are understanding that different cultures and different ethnicities and different lifestyles and just different ways of living exist in the world and that it's okay.

Anonymous (he/him):
38:55

Right.

Bryan (he/they):
38:55

And I think that it would be good, in my opinion, to move beyond acceptance Like we're in a great place because we've gotten rid of. Like teach tolerance because tolerance is like oh, I will, it's fine, you can live, but I'm going to suffer through that.

Anonymous (he/him):
39:09

Right.

Bryan (he/they):
39:09

Acceptance. Acceptance is like it is suitable for you to live. It's suitable for you to do the thing that you're doing. And affirmation is like okay, I support you in your right. Being different. I support that. You are different and that's okay.

Anonymous (he/him):
39:23

Yes, so it's moving towards belonging and helping setting up an environment that helps people feel like they belong despite their differences.

Bryan (he/they):
39:30

And it's funny like I think about all like the anti-queer behavior that happens in schools and I think about how all of us took a pedagogy class or a teaching methods class that had to deal with, like Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

Anonymous (he/him):
39:43

Right.

Bryan (he/they):
39:44

Um, and we are all taught that all of these things are required. And here's the thing like we don't get this pyramid and give it to the students and say here's the pyramid, figure it out Right. Like other people, play a role in that pyramid for every single student.

Anonymous (he/him):
40:00

Yes.

Bryan (he/they):
40:01

If you cannot affirm someone's gender or their sexual orientation, or who that person is, you cannot affirm it. You're actually going against that hierarchy of needs. You are a detriment to it. And so, if you want to, you know, claim that you have pedagogical brilliance, but you can't affirm somebody's identity. You are cracking the foundation of that hierarchy.

Anonymous (he/him):
40:27

Yep, and so I just find that mind boggling.

Bryan (he/they):
40:31

It's also like what I think about doctors and they have to take the Hippocratic oath, which is, like you know, above all else, do no harm, Um, and I'm just like, how are you going to say that and then also be a doctor? That's like I'm not going to treat you because you are transgender. Right, like isn't isn't that harmful behavior? Isn't that against your oath?

Anonymous (he/him):
40:49

Well and and for me? I also think it's like who am I to, say, house, to dictate how someone else should live? It's almost like an egotistical thing, like I'm nobody, I'm just doing the best I can every day, kind of like how I said earlier, and they are too, and I am nobody to tell someone else how they should be living. But, like I said, kind of like the theme for me is just treating people with respect and seeing and validated as you are a person with thoughts and needs and experiences that can contribute to anything. You know, that's how we work together. But I think that a lot Like who am I? I'm nobody, I'm not, I'm not thinking that my way is better than others, absolutely.

Bryan (he/they):
41:28

So at this point in the interview I'm going to actually turn over the mic to you and you get to ask me a question, um for me to respond to. So I get to be in the hot seat now. Take it away, guests.

Anonymous (he/him):
41:38

Ooh, how hot is this hot seat.

Bryan (he/they):
41:40

I mean, I've got a lot of light on me right now, so I'm pretty warm.

Anonymous (he/him):
41:43

Wait, is that your on, because it's cold here.

Bryan (he/they):
41:46

No, you can ask another one and another one after that one, because you just asked to.

Anonymous (he/him):
41:51

Oh darn it. Okay, let's see, let's think. Ideal world of, or let's let's even narrow it down, Ideal institution of education. What would your hope be for the institution of education in how to welcome others, I think first and foremost, the staff needs to be representative of the demographic of students that are in the school and I think it's important for representation to be present because, like I, didn't have my first queer teacher until college that I know of.

Bryan (he/they):
42:21

There are people that, like I heard rumors about, but there's no validity to that. It's gossip, you know right. So I think that there needs to be a good representation of the student body in the staff and in the faculty, specifically the people who are working directly with the kids.

Bryan (he/they):
42:39

I think that the values system that's put in place because, whether it's not, schools admit- it they all have a value system, whether or not it's like, these are our core values and we have them plastered all over the place, with our mascot next to them or like they made a cute little song or a phrase that talks about different things, like there are value systems at each school and as a part of social emotional learning which I know is a hateful buzzword right now it's the new critical race theory.

Bryan (he/they):
43:07

Right but social, emotional learning is the responsibility of the school environment, and so those values need to be reflective of being welcoming and promoting belonging. And not only are those things stated, but the school has a plan for implementation because, it's not enough to say we believe that everyone belongs here, right. I also believe in Santa.

Anonymous (he/him):
43:31

Yeah.

Bryan (he/they):
43:31

But my belief in Santa ain't going to happen unless somebody does some work to make it a reality. You know what I mean, like sure.

Anonymous (he/him):
43:39

Sure.

Bryan (he/they):
43:39

I think Santa is one of the most magical things, because it's literally an opportunity for parents to make magic. Yeah, and that doesn't happen often. So, like these things that exist that are fairy tales for kids to spoil, or or, oh my goodness. But the opportunity for parents to make magic like this is so important. And, you know, education can make this magic because it can be creating that environment where students do feel like they belong, no matter who they are, and that they have the liberty to change because we all do None of us are the same person we were in kindergarten.

Bryan (he/they):
44:15

And we like. We really do need to get it through, like parents and adults heads, that children change over time and they need to have the permission not necessarily the permission, but they need to be supported in changing and becoming who they are.

Bryan (he/they):
44:29

And when they change affirming that I mean we do some really simple stuff for cisgender, heterosexual people on a daily basis, that if we just applied that same mentality to other people you know the non-binary and transgender community, or you know people who have disabilities or whatever the situation is life would be great. And an example is as simple as, like I know you've been calling me Bobby all of my life, but I'm a teenager now and I want to go by Robert.

Anonymous (he/him):
44:57

Right.

Bryan (he/they):
44:57

Yes, I know you've been calling me Haley all my life, but I'm a teenager now and also I'm a teenage boy and I need you to call me Joshua.

Anonymous (he/him):
45:06

Right Mm hmm.

Bryan (he/they):
45:06

Yes, and would you like me to introduce you to your fellow students as Joshua? Yes, and how can I support you? And, being Joshua full time in my class, you know it's it's not giving permission to change, but it is supporting them as they go through their changes and, honestly, I feel like that's an ideal setting.

Bryan (he/they):
45:25

The other ideal setting is that the faculty makes enough that they don't have to work extra jobs or hurt for money. There are hard boundaries on work hours and it's a four day work week. It's a block schedule for high school and middle school and the educational policy is written by educators.

Anonymous (he/him):
45:41

Yes, this is my utopia, it is my utopia. So what I'm hearing is that we should start a charter school and just do all those things, correct.

Bryan (he/they):
45:49

That sounds great yeah. Let's call it. Well, this is funny. This is from a podcast episode a couple weeks ago, but we'll call it the gay agenda charter school. The gay agenda charter school yes my previous one of my previous guests a few weeks ago had a newsletter for their GSA that was called the gay agenda and it did not go over well with people who were doxing her. It's super funny, but I'm here for it.

Anonymous (he/him):
46:12

Yeah, I love it.

Bryan (he/they):
46:14

What school do you go to the?

Anonymous (he/him):
46:16

gay agenda on Tuesdays.

Bryan (he/they):
46:18

On Wednesdays, we wear pink G-A-C-S the gas All right. Well, I really appreciate that you were brave and came on the podcast. We have been talking folks back and forth for months just to make sure that this would be a safe environment for him, and so I'm so happy that you decided to come on, and I really enjoyed our conversation tonight.

Anonymous (he/him):
46:40

Thank you, so did I Awesome.

Bryan (he/they):
46:41

And I hope you all, listening at home or wherever you are, enjoyed the episode as well. Bye, thank you for joining us on this episode of teaching while queer. I hope you enjoyed it. If you did, make sure to subscribe. Wherever you listen to your favorite podcast, leave a review and that would help out tremendously. You can also support the podcast by going to www. teachingwhilequeer. com and hit support the show. Thanks so much and have a great day.